242: How to Overcome Workplace Challenges and Inspire Kindness with Shola Richards, Speaker and Author

In this episode of The Light Watkins Show, Light sits down with Shola Richards, a powerful speaker, author, and expert on workplace civility, to explore his incredible story of transformation. Shola opens up about surviving a toxic work environment, dealing with depression, and facing his darkest moment—a suicide attempt. What might have been the end of his story instead became a turning point that set him on a mission to create more kindness and empathy in the workplace.

Shola shares the defining moments of his life, from growing up as a highly sensitive person in a household with a strong West African father to overcoming workplace bullying and abuse. He talks about how these experiences shaped him and led him to develop a deep sense of compassion for others. Shola also discusses his new book, Civil Unity, which focuses on the power of kindness in creating positive change at work and beyond.

Listeners will gain valuable insights into how to handle difficult work environments, how to rise from rock bottom, and how small acts of kindness can have a ripple effect. Shola's journey is a reminder that even in the toughest moments, there's always hope and a way forward. This conversation is packed with wisdom for anyone struggling with work stress, mental health challenges, or simply looking for more empathy in their everyday life.

Tune in to hear an inspiring story of resilience, purpose, and how embracing kindness can transform your life and the lives of those around you.

Transcript

SR: “So for me, a lot of stuff was kind of maladaptive. I would, every no w and then drink maybe more than I should just kind of bury myself. So I played basketball after work and use that as a distressor, try to overexercise. I ran from it, everything except for sit and stare at the pain in the face. And that's why I use the term maladaptive because it wasn't really affecting. It was a way to kind of smooth out the edges a little bit and maybe give me a bit of peace temporarily, but never really addressing the issue because I never really addressed the issue. The monster under the bed got scarier and stronger and bigger until it overwhelmed me. And I think that's a lesson that now I know very, very well to address these things. If you had a lump on your rib cage, oh man, I'm just going to ignore it. The type of person I was to give you better insight is when I was younger, my brakes were grinding on my car. And because the brake pads were gone. And so when I would break, it would grind. So what I did instead of going to get them fixed, I would just turn the radio up really, really loud when I'm driving. So I wouldn't hear the grinding. But metaphorically speaking, it does fit how I saw life. I was like, if I just find a way to drown out the noise with something louder, then I won't hear it and then it will go away and predictably and unsurprisingly, it never did.”

[INTRODUCTION]

Hey friend, welcome back to The Light Watkins Show. I'm Light Watkins, and I love to interview ordinary folks just like you and me, who've taken an extraordinary leap of faith in the direction of their path, their purpose, or what they've identified as their mission in life. 

And in doing so, they've not only transformed their own lives, but they've also inspired countless others along the way. And one thing I've come to realize after conducting hundreds of these interviews is that everyone who's found their purpose has encountered a defining moment where they could either stay comfortable or they could follow their inner guidance, even if it seemed risky or uncertain. And it's in these moments that we make the choice to become truly ourselves. And that choice often has the most profound impact, not only in our own lives, but also in the lives of everyone around us. 

And today's guest, Shola Richards, is the archetype of that. Shola is a speaker, an author, and an expert on workplace civility, but his path to success was anything but straightforward.

Shola survived a toxic work environment where he was physically assaulted by a manager, and his mental health took such a hit that he even attempted suicide by driving his car into a guardrail in Los Angeles. But miraculously he survived and that moment became the catalyst for him to completely transform his life and his relationship to work.

Shola has since turned those dark moments into a mission to create a kinder, more empathetic work environment for everyone. He's a prolific keynote speaker, and he's the author of several books. His most recent book is Civil Unity, which dives deeper into the power of kindness in creating positive change.

And in today's conversation, we're going to talk about how Shola not only found the strength to recover from suicidal ideation and depression, but how he became a beacon of hope for others facing similar struggles, particularly in the workplace. We'll also discuss his superhero origin story, how he turned his pain into purpose, the power of kindness in workplaces, and what we can all do to create more empathy in our lives.

I think hearing Shola's story is going to deeply resonate with you, especially if you've ever felt like you were at rock bottom, but you still believe that there has to be a way up. His journey is proof that even in our lowest moments, we too can find purpose and that sometimes the smallest acts of kindness can have the greatest impact. And so without further ado, I introduce you to the incomparable Shola Richards. 

[00:04:11] LW: Shola, thanks so much for coming onto the podcast, sir. So good to see you again. 

[00:04:15] SR: Light, my guy, pleasure is all mine, man. Pumped to talk to you today.

[00:04:18] LW: Awesome, awesome, awesome. Alright, so I like to start the conversations off talking about the early days. I did read your book Civil Unity, you talk a lot about your childhood and your current work. And so I want to just dive a little bit deeper into how you were shaped to become the person that you are today. You told the mosquito story about your dad and your TEDx talk, which is an awesome story, and he sounds like a fascinating character, man.

Super smart, PhD, philosopher, and you described him as emotionally intelligent in the book. But he's also from Sierra Leone. And I've found that a lot of men from these West African countries can be very sort of masculine, stoic, and you describe yourself as an empath. So how was it growing up in that household with someone who I'm assuming was very strong, masculine figure. You described yourself as an HSP, a highly sensitive person. 

[00:05:24] SR: Yeah. It's funny growing up. I didn't realize that I was a highly sensitive person until probably later on in my life because you're absolutely right. There's a generalization, which is based on some level of truth that a lot of West African men, and of course I'm generalizing as well, are hyper masculine and really focus on a lot of traditional values around what masculinity looks like. My dad was different in that sense.

He was an intellectual, as you mentioned, a philosopher. And a philosopher, not in terms of his career, but he was a college professor who loved to philosophize about a lot of different things. Very sensitive, very thoughtful, very emotionally, connected. Even on top of that, he was very connected to people.

There was a story he told me I'll never forget. So my dad did lectures as a college professor and he would go to other events, maybe other campuses to speak potentially. And this had to be in like the 1980s probably. And he was invited to speak somewhere. And he was going to be speaking later in the day. So he came in his jeans, very casual gear, and a woman came up to him and was like, Hey, I need a coffee. Get me some coffee. Or we're out of coffee at this table. Go get me some coffee. And my dad was like, oh okay, and he went and got some coffee. He knew what was going on. He gave her the coffee and she was like, Yeah, thanks.

Anyway, and just kind of dismissed him and moved on. So, he ended up sitting at a table near where she was. And she assumed that he was the worker, like it was someone that was serving food or just being a hired hand, so to speak. So then the person who's running this event was like, and I'm so happy to share with you our keynote speaker. This man, he is researchable and on and on and on. And then seeing my dad stand up and walk to the stage, he was like, that was the just beautiful, dad, how did you have the self control to do that? Because I mean, I'm like, don't you know who I am? How dare you? Get your own coffee.

He was like, no. He was able to tap into something that was so powerful. And this goes back to the stories around his emotional intelligence, his self control, his restraint, because he dealt with a lot of challenges growing up. A lot of challenges as he got older, a lot of challenges in his career, professional jealousy and other things, racism, to name a few, and he fought through it. He's my guy. 

He passed in 2019. And growing up with that, I was always like looking at him as like, how does he do this? How can he be so unflappable in the face of hideous behavior? Not saying he just accepted it, mind you, because he stood up for himself. But he was able to dismiss some of the worst behaviors possible and move on.

And so that was something that I took from him growing up. And I think as a highly sensitive person, as you mentioned, started to realize that I also need to have those tools that my dad had and a lot of it. I kind of packed into the civil unity as a message for myself. I literally dedicated to myself the book that I wish I had when I was younger. 

[00:08:33] LW: So you have brothers. I also have brothers and we grew up in Alabama and you and I are about the same age. So down in the South, obviously one of the big topics that everybody, all communities talk about is racism, black, white, and you have to prepare your sons for the realities of that world. And was that a conversation, an ongoing conversation that you all had coming again from a West African father? What was that like? 

[00:09:00] SR: Absolutely. Because West African dad and a Mississippi woman. So my mom and dad were married for 49 years and together they had some things for me that still stick with me to this day, Light. 

If I'm gonna be real, like things that seem so silly to some people, but not to you and certainly not to me, like I always get a receipt. I don't care if I'm buying a pack of gum at 711, I always have a receipt. And so remember at the grocery store, 

[00:09:24] LW: You see white people opening chips up in, I can never do that.

[00:09:28] SR: It's so funny that you say that because I'm like watching this folks literally eating chips that they have not yet paid for. God, that must be nice. 

I was at a restaurant with a group of friends and some of them are white. And we got to the restaurant and there's like tables all over the place and they just start getting up and start moving the tables in the restaurant together to make it work for them.

And I had to be like, y'all just went in here and that's you own this place. I'm not going in here. This is their restaurant. And we all had a big laugh together about it. Because oh yeah, I never really thought about that. But yes, these conversations when I was younger were critical for, not just the small things like getting the receipts, not staying out after dark. And if you are playing outside, don't run, be careful around where you're running. Make sure you're in this place because it could look like you're possibly committing a crime. All these things that a lot of people that may not have to ever experience or even think about that I have to think about on a daily basis. So that was part of it. I got those conversations and to their credit, I think I've been safer because of it.

I think I've avoided a lot of things that would have kind of flown over my 10, 11, 12 year old head at the time. And these lessons stick with me to this day. I have two daughters still have conversation with them a little different than if they were sons, if I could be quite honest, but still conversations nonetheless, but yeah, it shaped me.

And I think I became hyper vigilant and hyper aware of my race because I was very blind to the idea that I was different from anyone until I was told that I was. And then that kind of stuck with me and I realized how I have to navigate this world to stay safe and to be productive. 

[00:11:05] LW: Oh man, when you talk about not running, I remember I was about 9 or 10. Your parents would drop you off at the mall and just leave you there for two or three hours. And we were playing tag. So we'd be in a store. One of our friends would tag us and then they'd run out of the store and then we ran anyway, next thing, we were in the back of the store with police officers and because the store owner had called the cops because they thought we were stealing stuff and that's why we were running.

And I didn't realize at the time that I was being profiled because I didn't know what that was. I had no language for that. But when I look back at my youth, I was profiled several times. 

I remember one time, the cops pulled my brother and I over. We were walking from my grandmother's house back to our house, which is probably, like a 10 minute walk. And the cop pulls us over. We're like, probably 11 and 12 and he's wearing a red shirt. I'm wearing a green shirt. And the cop says, yeah, we got to call. Somebody's breaking into people's houses. They look like you guys. One is wearing a red shirt and one is wearing a green shirt. And I'm thinking to myself, wow, what a coincidence. Not realizing that probably somebody looked out their window and just called the police on us. 

[00:12:20] SR: Exactly. And that's wild because I think these conversations are hopefully eye opening to people who don't have to experience this stuff, right? Because I think that's something that kind of pride myself on as a teacher. There's a story that happened to me kind of during pandemic times, which was interesting. I have a neighbor who's since moved, but one of my dear friends, white guy who lives across the street and he was on vacation with his lovely wife. And he's like hey man. He called me for vacation. 

Hey, Shola, I have a bunch of Amazon boxes packed outside of my front door. And I’m not going to get to them till next week. Would you mind heading over to my house and grabbing those packages from my front porch and bringing them back to your house? And then I'll get them after I get back from vacation. 

Hell no! What? Are you crazy? There's no way I'm going to a house that is not mine, picking up packages that do not belong to me, carry them back to my house. Do you not see how they can play out poorly for me? 

Oh man, I'm so embarrassed to even ask. 

But that's the beauty of these conversations, right? Because I would bet that many of my white brethren and sister, siblings or whomever, Man, what's the big deal? It's a neighborly thing. 

Yeah, it's all good. Man, because I will be face down on the pavement, potentially shooting first, asking questions later. I'm getting home to my family. I'm continuing to do the work that I love, and I'm going to stay alive for as long as I humanly possibly can.

And I'm certainly not going to do anything that's going to shorten my life if it's intentionally easy for me to avoid doing so that's really the thing. And I think these conversations help to let people don't like, Oh, that's the thing. Yeah, it's a thing. It's a story of my life

[00:14:00] LW: . Wait,I got one too. I was dating this girl in Venice. She's not black and she's got two dogs and she lives on a street-facing house and she didn't get a chance to walk her dogs. We were boyfriend and girlfriend. It was Friday night. She calls me and she goes, hey, I'm still stuck at this other place. Would you mind going over to my house and walking the dogs? 

I said, well, I don't have the key to your house. 

Oh, the window's not locked.

[00:14:29] SR: No, no! 

[00:14:30] LW: Just go in. 

[00:14:37] SR: That's a setup. Were you about to break up? 

[00:14:37] LW: That's exactly what I thought. I just don't feel like getting shot tonight. I don't feel like tonight. Okay. Going through all that stuff on Friday night. I'm going to go through your front window in Venice. Come on. That's ridiculous. 

She didn't understand why I had an issue with that. And I couldn't even really explain it to her because I mean, where do you even start? 

[00:14:57] SR: There's a saying that I love is I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you. If you're sitting here thinking like, well, wait a second because my neighbors got it instantly. They knew they're like, look, that's ridiculous I even asked. I did not think about it. But for your girlfriend at the time, what's the big deal? Just climb through my window. Oh, that's wild. That is not okay. 

But that's, actually really funny because it's like, Hey, can you climb through my window? Oh my God. Man, that would've been the end of Light Watkins. The show would've never been born. We wouldn't be having this conversation, right? We were just sitting here talking about, man, remember that crazy brother who tried to go through his girlfriend's window? Oh man. Yeah. I heard. You'd be a hashtag, man. That's pretty much it. 

[00:15:47] LW: Oh man. Alright. Take us back to that time. When you were 11, I believe, and you were in that classroom in Greensboro. Actually, before we get to that, you have an identical twin brother. You didn't really talk about that, but I have an Irish twin brother. He's 11 months older than me. So that's what they call Irish twins. One of the things that kind of was always in the back of my mind as I was going through school was, I go to a class, he's already been there. Like he was there a year before and I just couldn't wait to break off, graduate and go do my own thing without being in my brother's shadow all the time. Your brother in that class with you when that incident occurred? Talk about the incident. 

[00:16:36] SR: Yeah. So it's funny because I never really talked about it much ever, but I felt like when I was writing this book and I'm going to answer your question, I've written two books before and each book got like more progressively personal. And I felt like this one, because I don't know if I'm going to write another book again. I just went all in with sharing some things that may be useful to someone. 

So my dad was a professor at University of Massachusetts in Amherst. And then he ended up going down to the University of North Carolina, Greensboro, UNCG to teach for a year. So we moved for a year to this new area, Greensboro, North Carolina. And in my classroom in fifth grade, I was taking a math test and I had to use the restroom like really, really badly. And my teacher was like, no, no, you can go to the bathroom after you finish the test, which I found to be really unnecessarily strict and borderline cruel. Like I need to use the restroom. I mean, I'm not making this up. I'm not going there to check the answers on my phone. Remember this is like 1984 probably. We don't phones back then. So I'm like, look, I need really need to use the restroom. She's like quiet.

So I'm taking the test. I'm like, this is not gonna work out well for me. And I ended up peeing all over myself, all over the floor, all over my pants. And it was traumatic, man. Because just entering puberty, kind of just kind of getting that energy. It was like a new kid on top of that, in a new state, a new area, it was really, really hard. And I remember feeling such deep shame and embarrassment. And then when people started to notice what was going on, they saw this puddle pooling under me and everyone started laughing. And the laughter was awful.

And to be quite honest, I mean, look, is it too much to ask to think that like 11 and 10 year olds would not laugh at a kid who peed all over himself? Probably too much to ask. But the teacher, I mean, the teacher could have done better. And I remember running to the bathroom. I said, thinking to myself man, like, why can't people be kinder to each other? Why are people so awful to each other? And I shared this in Civil Unity, like this was the origin story. This is where it was. I'm not Spider Man. I wasn't bitten by a radioactive spider. I'm a cool origin story. This is my story. And in that bathroom, I'm trying to clean myself up and try to make sense of what happened.

I realized this is awful. People are so mean and I need to understand why can't we be kinder to each other? And I've been searching for that answer, or I was searching for that answer for probably 20 years after that incident where I was looking for kindness and understanding why people behave in ways that are mean. And. I'm grateful for that situation because it opened my eyes up to a few things that I wasn't aware of before. And I think most importantly, allow me to realize that I'm not the only person feeling this way. And if I can help them, if I'm going to be one of these people who have to feel things deeply, then I might as well use this to my benefit, not to my detriment.

[00:19:33] LW: Do you feel like that moment? And maybe you were already like this, but do you feel like that moment made you have compassion for other people who had very tender, vulnerable experiences occur to them? Because you also talked about shortly before moving there, you, those two boys took you into the woods and to show you something cool and ended up sexually abusing you.

[00:19:54] SR: It was a lot. So between that situation where I endured sexual abuse and the situation that led into Greensboro. I think those two made me more aware if that makes sense of other people's suffering because I'm a kid. Kids are very self-focused. They're not really thinking about a whole lot besides themselves. So that was something that made me think whoa, there's other people here who's probably also hurt too. At the time I felt like I was alone. I was like, maybe I'm the only person dealing with this at worst. I kind of internalized it. There must be something wrong with me that people aren't kind to me that must be a problem that I'm dealing with. So all these things together created an environment where I felt awful, but I did start to notice as I got older, while there's other people who are struggling too. And maybe, if I can talk to some of these people or connect to some of these people who are struggling, maybe we can find a way to come out of this together. And. That was kind of the beginning of that thought. But now as a nearly 50 year old man, I have deep compassion for others in ways that I never thought possible.

I just see the pain in people and I'm focused on doing whatever I can to alleviate it. It's exhausting light sometimes, to be honest. But I feel like there's no other way that I want to live than being in the service of helping others. 

[00:21:19] LW: One more question about those moments. How did your parents find out you peed on yourself and, or did you kind of conceal it and just hold that in for years and years. And how did they sort of deal with that or deal with similar situations? Were they protective? Or they say you just figured out for yourself. 

[00:21:38] SR: No, they're super compassionate and kind, which is great, which I love about my parents. I did share it. I mean, not in like the painstaking detail. Cause I was afraid if I don't share it and it goes back to them, then it's going to be maybe, Shared in a way that's not accurate or potentially, overblown. And I just want to be the one to kind of preemptively be like, Hey, so something happened in class.

Really embarrassing. And they're super supportive. They're like, Whoa, Whoa, what are you doing? PM? Oh gosh, that must've been awful. I'm just, that's so embarrassing. If I'm can't imagine how awful it must've been for you. And that's the reason why I can tell my parents anything. I mean, I have this relationship with my parents.

where I don't feel like I need to hide stuff from them. And I think that's also been very helpful now with me and my daughters, where I can talk to them and they can feel like they can talk to me about anything. So that's why I want to create that environment of vulnerability, psychological safety, freedom to be who you are.

So you can say what you need to say because a lot of people are afraid to keep it real because they're afraid of being judged. And I felt fear about that for a while, but I never felt that with my parents. And now that I'm a parent myself, I'm making sure that my girls never feel that with me. 

[00:22:50] LW: Okay. Beautiful. So a couple more questions about your younger years. What was your idea of success? Obviously your dad's role model. I'm not sure what your mom was doing at that time, so projecting ahead as a young person now, not you looking back, but as a young person, what were you seeing as when I do this, then I'm going to be successful.

[00:23:13] SR: I think success for me was my parents, meaning that they were able to have a house and have a working vehicle and they're smart and they're educated. For a lot of kids hey, I want to be a professional athlete. I want to be a fireman. I want to be an astronaut. I was like, I just want to be my mom or my dad. I want to be either one of them. If I can find a way to do something, they both were very good at what they did. They're very well respected in the community. They had a beautiful house. And they took care of themselves in a way that they didn't need to ask anyone for anything. I noticed that even at a young age. It's, man, this would be great. 

And they told me later on listen, it wasn't all sunshine and rainbows. We're struggling. We didn't share that with y'all because you're little, how are you going to help out? That doesn't help you like make you scared. But at the same time, it wasn't an act because they weren't acting. They just made sure there's certain things that we just didn't need to know about. And they made it work. And I can't say enough about them. So for what I think about success at that age, it was like, man, if I can just have a house and I can have a car and I have work with a bank account with some money in it, I mean, I'm going to be chilling cause that's it seems to be working for them. So it would work for me too. And that was it. That's all I needed. 

[00:24:29] LW: Funny, I just thought about something else because you and I are about the same height. When you grow up as a tall black guy, you have to answer that same question over and over and over. Are you a basketball player? Are you a basketball player?

You're actually an NBA fan. I'm not really that much into basketball and I did play a little bit recreationally, but I was no means you're going to be on anybody's team or anything like that. though, I was in this fancy hotel in Beverly Hills. I was at this conference that Deepak Chopra was hosting. 

[00:24:56] SR: Oh, wow. Okay.

[00:24:57] LW: So everyone there was either a scientist or a philosopher or something and I'm in the elevator with this old white lady going to the conference and she of course looks at me and goes, do you play for the Lakers? And in that moment, I just got so tired of that question. I just said, Yeah.  

I mean, that was probably the thousandth time I'd ever been asked a question about basketball. 

[00:25:21] SR: But it's brother, I mean, I knew that before you even share that story, I knew where it was going. I was flying to salt Lake City and if you're first class… 

[00:25:28] LW: …you're a basketball player.

[00:25:30] SR: Oh, no doubt. So if I'm sitting in suit seat two C, do you play for the Utah Jazz? So, unlike you, I just was like, I couldn't do it. 

[00:25:40] LW: You tried to educate them? 

[00:25:41] SR: Yeah, and it was a woman. It was like, no, do you play for the Jazz? Well, what type of question is that? I'm a woman. Yeah? And I'm a black man who just happens to be on this plane. And guess what? I Don't have to play basketball. I don't do that. I did play college basketball, but I would play now. And she's oh, oh, okay. I was just wondering. 

And I think there's a time where we have to make a decision between three questions. Do you address it now? Do you address it later or do you let it go? And it depends on my mood. It's just Utah Jazz? That is wild to think so narrowly of an entire group of people that make up 13 percent of our population here in the United States is just shocking to me. Everyone who's over the height of 5 foot 10 must be an NBA basketball player. They can't be a scientist. They can't be a football player. They can't be a Fortune 50 CEO. So I try to educate with love whenever I can. And depending on my mood, sometimes I just let it go. because we're tall black men. And I think the shaved head also kind of adds a little bit to it. Oh man, kind of that Michael Jordan energy. I don't know, but it's laughable, but sometimes you just got to address it. Just have to say something. 

[00:26:54] LW: So Lewis Howes had Larry King on his podcast. And then Larry was telling a story about this cop that was shot by this kid. when he approached the kid in central park. The kid was on like a new bicycle, a brand new Schwinn bicycle, and he went to approach him because he thought maybe the kid had stolen the bicycle and the kid pulls out a little pistol and shoots the cop. And come to find out that cop was like the fifth cop that it pulled this kid over that day to ask about his bicycle and he just lost it. And I think that's what people don't appreciate when someone overreacts to one of those, what seems like an innocent question. We've been asked that question a thousand times, and it's not to say that it's justified for you to overreact, but that's why those kinds of things can happen.

[00:27:44] SR: That's so well said because I think this idea of what's the big deal? And if you take it in isolation, you're absolutely right. It's not really a big deal. But it's this whole death by 1,000 paper cuts thing where it happens over and over and over and over and over again.

And by the 23rd, 25th time this happened, stop. So I'm not justifying obviously what he did. But I think it offers some insight and some understanding about why someone gets pushed to the edge when it happens that often. 

[00:28:12] LW: Yeah. All right. So give us a montage. Where'd you go to college? What are you going to do for a living? Talk about your early days in the professional career, leading up to that toxic job that you oftentimes refer to in your talks. 

[00:28:25] SR: Yeah, I went to school at a small liberal arts school in upstate New York called Union College in Schenectady, New York. Great school. Got my bachelor's in psychology there. That's really where I kind of really learned about, organizational psychology and the idea of, because again, the fascination was why do people act the way that they do? And it was very, very interesting environment for me to learn into, I was challenged a lot. There's some really fabulous academic rigor at Union College. So it allowed me to kind of go deeper into this. And I was like, you know what, I don't know what the hell I'm going to do with this career. I mean, because I didn't want to be a therapist. But I did want to figure out how we show up effects how we work. And that was something that I was fascinated by. 

I really didn't have a plan on that going into it. I was like, let's give it a try. Let's see what happens. So I started entering the working world and I saw a lot of really interesting behaviors that were wildly toxic and strange, and I began to think maybe this is just how the working world is. Maybe this is how people operate. Maybe people are just rude and unkind generally. And so I need to toughen my skin up a little bit and quit being a baby and figure it out. And that was my understanding. I was so sensitive because I'm a sensitive person that I just couldn't understand.

Like, why are people acting this way? This makes no sense. And it would hurt me to the point where I would just almost become debilitated. It was really, really tough. But then I would lean into my psychology and I'd lean into just trying to be curious. And I could only take that so far until I eventually had to the point where I've dealt with enough unkindness in my life that I was just like, screw it, I can't go much farther with this.

[00:32:05] LW: Give us some examples. What are you referring to? Like stuff you've seen, like the office where people are just condescending, incompetent insensitive. 

[00:32:08] SR: Yeah, it was, it ranged from condescending, rude. That type of stuff taking credit that they didn't deserve. Oh, yeah. All that fun stuff to like, really picking me out as a target.

I was a high performer at this particular place and I was a high performer doing what I felt was just, good work. People hated it because I was relatively new and I was able to climb up pretty quickly than those rankings of where people. And people do kind of crazy stuff to break me. One example where I brought like a turkey sandwich to lunch. And these colleagues of mine, when I went to go to the cubicle to make a call, they would run to the break room fridge, pull my sandwich out of my lunch bag and step on it, literally step on it. So I see the footprint in the bread and then put it back in the lunch bag, like crazy, cartoonishly stupid stuff. And it made me start to question what in the world is wrong with humanity that this would be considered okay. But my self esteem was so low and I was starting to fall into a little bit of depression when I started to really realize that I'm a little predisposed to a lot of depressive episodes and just depression in general.

I was like, man, it must be me. I'm, not good. I’m not seeing these types of things happening to everyone else. Everyone else seems to be fine. Everyone else seems to be good. It must be me. And that's when I realized if it is me and I'm not worthy of kindness from other people, then I should probably do something to leave this world because I can't stand to be in it. 

[00:32:05] LW: Was this a job where your boss punched you in the face? 

[00:32:08] SR: No. And it wasn't in the face, thankfully, but she punched me in the shoulder. She was mad. They did not follow her orders to the tee. So no, it was not that thankfully different. That was another job before this job after.

So I was like, I'm grateful. Light. I'm grateful. I'm grateful. As weird as this may sound to some, because. I have empathy for people who work in terribly awful work environments. There are folks who do this work of trying to help heal workplaces and all their experiences from a master's level textbook or from professors or from seminars. I live this stuff. So someone can roll up to me right now. Oh man, you don't know what it's like to deal with the boss. That's toxic. You don't know what it's like to work in an environment where people don't respect you. Oh, hold up, fam. Let me educate you real quick. I do understand deeper than you could ever, ever know. And let's talk about it because I think that empathy allows someone to be like, oh, he's a real one. He understands it. Versus I can talk about it intellectually, but I can also talk about it experientially. So I've gone through it and that to me, I feel allows for a little bit more credibility. In these conversations, because I know what it's like, and I can talk to someone from a place of shared understanding, which I think has been really helpful for me throughout my career so far. 

[00:33:30] LW: So I just want to fill in some of the other gaps just to give more context to this next pivotal part in your story.

You mentioned that you started to have episodes of depression and I'm imagining that you had been holding this repression in for such a long time from these other things where you had been targeted as a young person. And now you're very active with therapy and all of that.

Were you seeing a therapist at the time? And so how were you sort of attempting to process this toxicity at the time? And then also talk a little bit about what was going on in your personal life. I know you had gotten married. I'm not sure if Kaya and Nia were on the scene at the time or how they were, talk a little bit about what was going on at home while you were dealing with all this toxicity at work.

[00:34:21] SR: Yeah. So at the time I just met my girlfriend who is now my wife. So the girls, Kaya and Nia came later. So I was just started dating Amber and things were great, but I didn't feel I was conditioned not by my parents, but by other friends and stuff like that oh man, therapies for crazy white folks and this, that, and the other.

So I never, all the stuff that a lot of black folks here growing up. So I didn't feel like, why would I do that? I’m not crazy. I'm not some person who needs to go to a mental asylum and be in a straitjacket. There's this weird mischaracterizations of mental health and mental health care. So I was not into that. So I did not do anything. So for me, a lot of stuff was kind of maladaptive. I would, every now and then drink maybe more than I should just kind of bury myself. So I played basketball after work and her use as a distressor, try to overexercise, if that’s even a thing. I ran from it. Everything except for sit and stare at the pain in the face. And that's why I use the term maladaptive because it wasn't really affecting this. It was a way to kind of smooth out the edges a little bit and maybe give me a bit of peace temporarily, but never really addressing the issue because I never really addressed the issue. The monster under the bed got scarier and stronger and bigger until it overwhelmed me. And I think that's a lesson that now I know very, very well to address these things. If you just like had a lump on your rib cage oh man, I'm just going to ignore it. The type of person I was to give you better insight is when I was younger, my brakes were grinding on my car. And because the brake pads were gone. And so when I would break, it would grind. So what I did instead of going to get them fixed, I would just turn the radio up really, really loud when I'm driving. So I wouldn't hear the grinding. That's literally like a metaphor. And that's not even a metaphor because that's literally what I did.

But metaphorically speaking, it does fit how I saw life. I was like, if I just find a way to drown out the noise with something louder, Then I won't hear it and then it will go away and predictably and unsurprisingly, it never did. 

[00:36:34] LW: And you said you wrote that the decision to end it all didn't take a lot of energy to arrive at that conclusion. You spent more time figuring out your fantasy football lineup and things like that. So, let's go to this day now, right? You wake up, you decide today's the day. I can't do this for another, even 30 minutes, much less 30 years. and are you living with Amber at the time?

[00:37:03] SR: No, still kind of in separate apartments, but we're like seeing each other often, but not quite to that level yet. 

[00:37:10] LW: So just walk us through what you were thinking. How'd you come up with your plan? And, then what happened? How did it play out?

[00:37:17] SR: Pretty straightforward. I just woke up and I was like, you know what? This doesn't feel good anymore. I feel like this pain is overwhelming. I looked at the alarm clock and after hitting snooze, however many times damn it, I got to go to this job. Because I got to pay rent and be able to care for myself. I'm like, let's go. 

And went down the freeway and the four or five, I was like, you know, what? I can't do this. Then just a voice in my head, just do it. Just turn the steering wheel, man. Just make it happen. Just do it. Because I would never be the type of person who would violently end my life through shooting myself or slashing my wrist and having someone find me, because I was a highly sensitive person that would not compute in my head/ But making it look like an accident sounds like a great idea. So it's like this way I can be absolved of any wrongdoing, relatively speaking, and no one would ever know the truth. And that was something that I tried. And so when I got to a spot that I felt was like, okay, this seems safe. 

[00:38:12] LW: Safe, meaning you're not going to injure anybody else.

[00:38:14] SR: Exactly. Exactly. Because I'm not something that I was very thoughtful of at the time. I just want to leave. No one needs to come with me. This is not their fight or their challenge or their problem. This is my problem. And this is how I chose to solve it. And thankfully I tried and the guardrail held and I came back in incoming traffic and that's what I spend some time thinking about. 

[00:38:37] LW: To what degree were you turned towards this thing? Were you heading straight to it or was it just like you brushed against it?

[00:38:44] SR: Yeah, so I went and so I'm on..

[00:38:49] LW: If I was driving behind you, what would I have seen?

[00:38:53] SR: You've seen me sharply go towards the guardrail as if like I'd spilled hot coffee on myself or something. And I just went there and kind of hit the guardrail and then ended up on the shoulder.

[00:39:02] LW: I've seen these documentaries where these people, they jump off the golden gate bridge and they say, the moment I jumped, I was like, what am I doing? Oh no, this, I didn't want to do this. 

[00:39:11] SR: Yeah. I've never seen that documentary, but I can tell you that was my story. So as soon as I came back and incoming traffic, what in the, I have no idea. And part of suicide, and I'm only speaking for myself because obviously the stories are very completely varied and individually focused on the person. 

For me, when I did it, I attempted, I felt this feeling of a lack of hope. There was just nothing there. So I was like, what am I doing? And so when it came back in the car, incoming traffic, all my humanity rushed back to me. I just started sobbing and crying, ugly cries, stuff that was so deeply repressed for years rushed up to the surface and it was overwhelming, but it was also this release that as I tamp this down and try to keep it down, push through what I was like, Oh my God, it was a beautiful moment because I was like, wow, all this feeling, all this stuff, decades of pain has now been released. And I'm like, all right, enough. And I decided from that point forward, because it's been probably over 20 years ago, I'll never let myself get to that place again. I'll never allow that to happen. And that's when I started realizing that I need to be taking care of my own mental health and really removing myself from really deeply toxic environments in that environment was awful. 

But there's been other sense that aren't great, but now I feel like I have the tools to help myself. And now because I have the tools to help others in the same situation.

[00:40:49] LW: I don't mean to get too personal about this. But I'm asking these questions, thinking that somebody else may be out there, who could use this knowledge. You're now known for speaking about this, this is like probably the peak part of your talks, but I'm sure at the time you didn't know that was going to be happening and I'm sure that maybe you were even majorly embarrassed that you had tried to kill yourself. So talk about those next few days? Would you play it off? Did you tell somebody, Hey, guess what I just tried to do? Because this is not something that people usually can handle. No, they're going to overreact and maybe you don't even want that. But I'm just curious when you look back, What did you do well to handle it? What could you have done better to sort of navigate that moment after the fact, after you try to commit suicide. 

[00:41:38] SR: I didn't, in fact. There's nothing that I handled. Nothing, none of it. So all of it with love, like one of the things often is people use the term commit suicide. And commit suicide likens suicide to a crime. Committing murder, committing bank fraud. So with love, I always say when you attempted suicide or die by suicide, but the committing suicide, that's just one of those phrases that I think when we move past it kind of allows people to lean into more empathy towards folks that are potentially criminalizing the act that's one thing because your question is really powerful. What did I do? It was awful. I didn't do anything. So one thing I didn't do is I didn't share my suicide attempt with anyone for 11 years, including my wife. 

[00:42:27] LW: What’s that gash in your car?

[00:42:27] SR: I don't know, man. People are weird. Parking strange, I don't even know what silliness I use. That's my excuse. But I never told anyone. So that was probably the first thing that I did wrong. 

Second thing in my defense though, I didn't really categorize what I did as a suicide attempt. I was just like, oh man, as strange as this may sound now, but I just like, Oh, I just wanted to be done with it. I tried to drive off, but I bounced back. I mean, this whole thing took like what? Seven, 10 seconds, 15 maybe. So it was so fast that I was just like, I'm fine. I'm still here. Let's move on even though I started sobbing and coming back to it. I was like, it wasn't that serious. 

[00:43:07] LW: Maybe it was even a sign that maybe I'm not meant to do that. 

[00:43:10] SR: Yeah exactly. So I didn't spend a whole lot of time thinking about it, but what I did do, because I was very emotional at the time, and I think that emotional was my release. And once I had that emotional release, I was like, okay. That was a close call. Let's move on. But the problem still remained. I was still depressed. So that didn't change because I did this and survived. It was because I was still in a dark place. It was a really dark place. So afterwards I quit on the spot that job with no money in savings and it was tough. It was really, really tough. I had to take out like a predatory loan just to be able to survive. That was a really awful time. And I think about that, I wouldn't have done it any differently because the only option I had was to continue to go to work and get a paycheck from these people. 

But at the same time, I'm like, no, I have to make a decision. And I did, and I made a really tough one, both the best decision I've made in my life, but what eventually happened was after a period of time of just lying in bed, I got to do something. I'm just going to do well, I'm brushing my teeth today, or I'm going to get outside and let some sun hit my skin. And like, I started cascading these little wins together where I was like building upon each wind. I was like, all right, I'm gonna do this today. I'm gonna do this today. I'm gonna do this today. And then before you know it, thankfully it was really at a point where I finally was able to be like, wow, I'm in a better place now, and even at that time, I still didn't really engage in therapy because I still had really bad misconceptions and stereotypes around therapy.

But I started reading books and started leaning into that because I'm a reader. I read a lot. 

[00:44:50] LW: What were some of your gateway books at that time? 

[00:44:53] SR: At the time I was into Dr. Wayne Dyer. And he has a book called The Power of Intention, which is one of my all time favorites. And I got into his work a lot. I remember Iyanla Van Zandt had a really powerful book. One day my soul just opened up. I read a lot of Tony Robbins stuff as well.A  lot of folks that were kind of in this self-empowerment space and spiritual space, I found to be really attractive to me. So I’m just diving into books. They were my therapy. They were the ones who helped me. And having these luminaries share their wisdom that was hard fought and hard won over decades of their life and sharing it in a condensed version of a book for me to consume was a dream. I was like, this is amazing. I can just take and drink from these luminaries anytime I want when I'm in dark space, I can go to my book.

And so that served as my therapy going forward for many, many, many, many, many years. And in some cases, as I'm still sitting here now in this podcast, It was very helpful for me to have that as my refuge and quite frankly, as my guidance. And they played a big role in me kind of taking care of my life and taking control of my future going forward.

[00:46:05] LW: Were you also applying for jobs at that time, or were you thinking, okay, I'm going to, start doing something different, switch careers because ultimately you become a keynote speaker and author. So give us another montage going from that moment where you're lying in bed, ordering food, not wanting to do anything, but having these little wins to you sort of rebounding to the next stage of your profession.

[00:46:28] SR: Yeah. So I was applying for jobs at that point because that loan was not, you had to start paying that 25% interest back, man. It was insane. It was like doubling every month. It was awful. But I was like, I got to figure this out. I got to do something. So I start applying for jobs.

And one job that was really appealing to me was a job of being a training specialist, a corporate trainer, going into places and training on topics. And this job at UCLA Health came up as a training specialist and training on things like appointment scheduling and appointment registration and customer service. I was like, this sounds amazing. 

Mind you, I don't know anything about health care besides seeing my mom work in that field. I don't have any real training background, but I was like, I can learn. I could figure this out. And so I applied and they had to give a little. There's a training, like a little practice training to kind of see if I could do it. And I did it and I did it well. And I got hired on the spot.

And this job at UCLA was one of, if the best things that were happening to me in my life. I was able to have this environment where I was speaking in front of audiences. They're like 10 people with computers in their faces as they're learning how to schedule appointments. But I was able to talk in front of them and engage them and I would add little stories and humor to make the stories around each patient has a story. This person's coming in because maybe they need to reschedule their appointment because something happened to them at work. And this is where you need to lean into empathy and thoughtfulness as you're talking through and giving this realism behind the story of just, oh, here's how you reschedule appointment. Type AR into the screen. And that means appointment reschedule. That's what a lot of trainers did. I was like, no, I want to put stories behind it. People were like, wow, I want to go to his class. I want to go to his class. And then we're starting out about me as this training specialist.

Wow, he's pretty good. And long story short as I did this, I started getting an appetite or an energy for speaking. I started feeling like maybe I'm not that bad at this. Maybe we could do this. And I started getting promoted. I went to lead training specialist to then training manager, and then director of training for the entire enterprise of UCLA Health.

That's when I realized wow, maybe there's something here. I'm good at this. But then it started to morph into. hey, like we really enjoy your presentations. And when you present in front of the leadership team, you remind me of a Tony Robbins. And it's kind of funny because these are the books I was reading. I was like, wow, that's a compliment. Like I thought about maybe doing speaking for a living. I was like, that's a thing. Like people actually get paid to speak for a living. Like you should look it up, man. You're pretty good. And then I did, I researched it And then I tried to speak once at an event and it went really well.

And then as time went on, I had to make a decision. I had my job at UCLA and I have a team that I'm supervising. And then on the other hand, I have now two books that I wrote in my free time in between work and parenting my kids and being a good husband, trying to be anyway. And I was like, I got a decision to make. Am I going to jump for the boat, which is my speaking career or stay on the pier, which is my job here at UCLA Health. And I started to make the jump for my speaking career in 2018. I left to do this full time and never looked back. And I'm so grateful for it. One of the best decisions I've ever made. 

[00:49:52] LW: Making Work Work was published in 2016.How did that come about? Was that self published? Did you get a book deal? And so how did you secure that just for people listening who are thinking about writing something? How does that work?

[00:50:03] SR: Yeah. Lots of stuff that I left out in that really short explanation of my career at UCLA Health. So basically I decided after my previous toxic job, and then I finally went to a great place like UCLA Health, I'm a writer. So I'm gonna start a blog about how we can create a better work environment.

I'm writing this more than the other, two followers, Turn to four, four, turn eight, eight to 16, 16, 32, 64, 128 on it. So it started to build and I'm able to get some writing reps. And this is back in 2011 when like blogs were like the hottest thing ever. And my blog was pretty good. And I was like, I'm gonna call it the Positivity Solution around how to be positive at work, and people dug it. And I started to get posting every Monday, specifically on Mondays because people hate Mondays. So I was like, let me give you something on Monday to look forward to. So post it every week. 

Eventually a literary agent out of New York city was like, wow, this guy's pretty good writer. And he's hey, do you have a book in you? First of all, I thought it was like totally some of my friends setting me up or something, but then I realized, Oh, she's legit. And then I was like, yeah, I think I do. It was like, well, let's think about if you had a book, what would it look like? Outline the chapters, create a book proposal and let's see if we can shop it around. And I did. And then the book proposal was well received. It was one traditional publishing with a group called Sterling Publishing out of New York, and it was beautiful. I had two book deal. So I wrote Making Work Work and Go Together on the same deal.

And then later on, like last year, I switched publishers and took those two books to Forbes books because for whatever reason, the publishing agreements was a little weird. So I was like, you know what, I'm going to switch to Forbes and my two books live there. And that's where my third book, Civil Unity, is going to be coming out as well.

But I can tell you the whole process of writing books, if there's anyone listening to this who Is a writer or doesn't believe that they're a writer. Maybe that's more accurate at least it was for me, found one book to be the one book that was so helpful for me. The War of Art by Steven Pressfield, that book changed me. And when I needed to figure out how to write and when I couldn't get past my own limitations and resistance, that book saved me. So I tell people, oh, I'm struggling to write, go get yourself The War of Art by Steven Pressfield and sit with that book. And then come to me later. And then we can have a conversation. And usually people are like… 

[00:52:37] LW: That's exactly how I got my first book written. 

[00:52:40] SR: Yes. Tell me about that. 

[00:52:43] LW: Three years of stopping, starting, overthinking, not ready, taking three months off, going back to it for two weeks, and then I'm in Whole Foods in Venice and I ran into a friend of mine who had just finished a screenplay. And I was telling him, oh, I'm still struggling with this. He said, dude, go get yourself a copy of The War of Art. And I did, and it's a really quick book to read it in the day essentially, but it's overnight. I went from an amateur to being a professional and showing up every day. And I say the same thing to people, get yourself a copy of The War of Art. In fact, Steven Pressfield has been on this podcast. He's one of my favorite people. 

[00:53:19] SR: No way man, I'm a huge fan. Tell him that one of his biggest fans says hello next time you talk to him because I just, his stuff, I devour his stuff and I have all the books that he's written and I find that book there's just something about that book that creatives need to hear and it doesn't have to be an author, you could be an artist. You could be a singer you could want to create your own startup business about anything. That book will help you to bake through barriers. It's like you said, it's an easy, super short read. So powerful. I love it. Great book. 

[00:53:57] LW: Beautiful man. So you said you kind of figured out you were a writer and then you started a blog. How did you figure out you were a writer? Were you dabbling, doodling every day? Because writing is really storytelling. So how did you know you were a storyteller? What were some of the signs? 

[00:54:13] SR: I found that when I'm spending my free discretionary time writing. There's something there, right? When I was writing the short story, I felt immersed in it. I'm sharing stories and making up characters. And I'm not a fiction writer. I'm a nonfiction writer, but I spent this time writing this story and I loved it. And it made me feel so good when I wrote it. And I wanted to come back to it. And I felt it calling to me and I'm like, maybe, I am a writer. So I think that's the thing about calling yourself a writer is I think we're all capable of being writers. That's why I think sometimes people tap out too quickly. I'm not a writer. Someone goes to write my book for me. Listen, everyone's got to do what they feel is best for themselves. But I wish that some of these folks would push through a little bit more of the discomfort and just to see, because I mean, none of the three books that I wrote were, all of them were painful. They'll hurt. They're not fun. You're sitting here. You're looking at the blinking cursor that's taunting you to come up with something. And you're just like, all right, I got to string some words together. It makes sense. It's not an easy process, but I found that when you lean into it a little bit more and kind of say listen, it's within me.

And I see what principle talked about. I believe in the power of the muses. I believe that I can connect to something spiritually, That can help guide me and help focus my work. That book in another book that's equally as beautiful is a Big Magic by Elizabeth Gilbert, those two books together. And then maybe another one Bird by Bird by Anne Lamott. Like those are the three books that if you want to write something, they'll help you to realize it. So I tap into the muses. I tap into that, kind of magical area, that is inexplicable to most folks that all of us have access to.

That's the reason why I'm not a writer. I was like, well, maybe I'm not either, but I say that I am. And like you said it's the difference between being an amateur and being a pro, pro means you're going to show up. So I'm here, I'm showing up, I'm here for it. And then I'm not going to go to a place like, well, maybe I'm not writer.

Now, if I decided I'm a writer, just like I decided I'm a speaker. So, I'm just going to keep doing it, see what happens. 

[00:56:27] LW: When you first started talking about your suicide attempt. What sort of reactions did you get and what surprised you? 

[00:56:38] SR: Oh, gosh. So the reactions were overwhelmingly positive. Now, as mentioned, 11 years before I decided to speak about that to anyone, much less on the stage. But I realized, you know what, listen, Making Work Work. I lead off with, I almost killed myself. It was like the first sentence of the book I wrote, Making Work Work.

And I had the first two chapters of it written. And for some reason that I'll never understand, instead of saving my book onto my computer, I saved onto a flash drive that I would carry with me mind blowingly dumb. And you can picture what happened to next. I lost it, lost the first two chapters. And that is devastating. I mean, as you're trying to write a book for the first time to lose that and I searched everywhere, I couldn't find it. So I just start over and in the starting over version, I was like, I'm not going to dance around this. I'm literally going to talk. I'm gonna start about with suicide attempt. If I didn't lose my first two chapters. I would have had this milk toast thing, like, how do we create positive environments? Let's see what the research says. 

Instead, I went a totally different path and it really paid off. So grateful, but back to your question.

Yeah, very positive. I would say 99 percent positive. The 1 percent might be. Well, that's kind of an overshare. I don't need to know all that stuff. Grow up and grow up. Like these are things that are happening. need to be weird. Oh, that's just, I don't want to talk about it. We're have many people who are struggling so worthwhile. 

What surprised me about all this though were the amount of people who are privately suffering, because I talk a lot about this idea. I thought I was the only one and invariably after my talks, usually one of three things happen. One, someone says to me, thank you for sharing. I am a suicide survivor myself and that touched me and I really am grateful that you shared. 

Two, someone says, I've lost someone to suicide. Someone's died by suicide that I love and yeah, it's tough. and I miss her. So there's that. 

And then the third one is Hey, real talk. I am in a dark place and I'm contemplating suicide and have been, however, this is one of the hardest things for me to deal with and to navigate and I feel like you speaking about it gave me hope. 

So those things surprised me because we don't talk about suicide in our daily conversations often. So you never know who's struggling. So it opened me up to the idea that we're all kind of broken in some way and we don't always share our brokenness with the world.

And so when the people kindly shared their vulnerabilities with me, I felt like Oh my gosh, maybe I should speak about this more because people are feeling heard and feeling seen and that's what I want. 

This is, oh, you're not alone. And also as a black man, not a whole lot of brothers out there talking about mental health, talking about vulnerable things in a way that's as big on stages like that. So I figured maybe I'll just lead the way and I'm so flawed and so not perfect to be the messenger for this. Maybe that's the reason why people kind of dig it because I'm just figuring this stuff out myself. I have days where I'm like, I can't get on stage and talk about this right now because I'm not in a great place, but I do.

And I think because I'm not the right person to do this maybe it makes me the right person, if that makes any sense. So I realize I am such an imperfect messenger. I just do the best I can. And I'm surprised by how willing and open people are to receive the message. 

[01:00:22] LW: Okay. So speaking of speaking obviously as you speak on stage, you become more refined. Talk about some of the earlier experiences. What were you doing that you look back on now and you kind of cringe at? 

[01:00:37] SR: Oh, God. 

[01:00:39] LW: And what's gotten a lot better over the years. 

[01:00:42] SR: I mean, we could spend like an entire episode talking about the things that make me cringe on stage that I did. It took a lot of people's advice and it didn't always pay off and some of the advice was just terrible advice. 

Someone would be like, you know what? You smile too much. And I was like, okay, people are not going to trust you because it seems like you're like a used car salesman. What you need to do is stop smiling. I was like, Oh, okay. That seems weird. And I did it. I tried because I thought this person's respected.

So I need to be more serious. Be taken seriously. Also, oh man, you need more academic studies, more rigor. What you should be doing is bringing like some white papers for folks to discuss amongst themselves at the tables. And then let the research lead the way, let other people's work, speak on their work. Don't make this about you. Okay. I mean, that seems to make sense. So many things that were so wrong with all this. 

Hey, you should wear all black. Don't wear color on stage because if you do, it's going to distract from the message. You want to fade into the background. You don't want to be seen as someone's coming. Don't wear colorful stuff. It's fading, about all black, just your message should be the thing that shines, not your clothes. 

Like I'm sharing with you the greatest hits of the worst advice I've ever received. And so all these things, there's so many more, but those are the ones that come to mind. And the idea of not smiling, not being authentic, this is who I am.

So there's that many people told me not to, I mean, I would say probably nine out of 10 people said, don't talk about suicide on stage. Please don't share that. That's gonna make people uncomfortable and they're just going to tune out. So don't do it and no one's going to hire you because no one's going to hire you talking about that stuff. So don't do it. 

And that was wrong. The idea of having white papers for people to read on their own. And then I come back and debrief them during my talk. I did that. And literally people were falling asleep at the table. People were walking out on me. A meeting planner almost didn't pay me because it was so bad. And I had to chase her down for weeks. Like, where's my money? And that comes down to just authenticity. I know it's an overly used word, but I don't know if there's any way to connect more deeply to audiences of being authentic, unless you're just authentically a jerk, then probably should be someone else, right? Don't do that. 

But if you're authentically a good human and you want to make the world a better place, and you're not self focused on you and you want to actually deliver value to the people who are listening to you. If you do that from an authentic place, it will always serve, will never fail. Only good things will happen. I just think that a lot of people don't think about it that way. Don't lean into it that way. And I was one of those people. 

So I cringe when I think about those times. Now, when I see folks on the come up who are like these amazing speakers who are so authentic and so real. And being told by supposed experts, Oh, you should think about changing your message because I don't think audiences are going to relate to it. Well then start, you be the first, you'd be the first one to do this. And I'm seeing people be the first. And I love seeing that and a conventional wisdom sometimes isn't always the best. And I found that to be something that I've leaned away from now. And my stuff makes me cringe less. I'm always cringing at some of the stuff that I do, but I cringe less because I think now is something that I'm coming from a place of purity and authenticity that I wasn't before. And now that I am, I feel much better about the work.

[01:04:03] LW: Yeah, I think Oprah has a quote. She says, if I knew how successful and wealthy I would become for being myself, I would have become myself a long time ago. And it's so true. I love that. You have a quote in your new book, Civil Unity. It’s Ruth Bader Ginsburg.  It really stopped me in my tracks. 

He said, fight for the things that you care about, but do it in a way that will lead others to join you. That's sage advice. What does that mean to you though? 

[01:04:32] SR: So when I think about when I'm fighting for the things that I care about, civility, respect, improving our discourse, if I am coming at it from a place of attack, from a place of being on the offensive, using, a way to make me come off as intellectually superior over someone else, then that's not really going to encourage people to want to fight with me.

Maybe they'll be like, yeah, I'm glad he's sticking it to the other side, whatever it may be. But I found that if I'm coming at it from a place of Hey, let's sit at the table together. We both want certain things. We both want respect. We both want to be seen. We both want to do our best work. We all want to be safe. Let's talk about how we can make this happen and come at it from a place of not villainizing either side, but are vilifying excuse me, either side, but just Creating an environment where we can come together and communicate with respect, it makes it easier for people to want to fight for that. Because I think almost everyone, regardless of where you are in the political spectrum, whether you are cisgender, transgender, whether you are Jewish, Muslim, Christian, atheist, black, white, whatever, Republican, Democrat, I think we all want to have that period of time where we feel at peace and we feel safe and feel free to be who we are.

So I'm coming out from a place of respecting folks for who they are. And obviously this is putting aside the people who are actively out to hurt and harm others. They're always going to be those people. I'm looking at that squishy middle of the folks who are just kind of could go either way. And I want to get as many of them engaged in this fight as possible.

The ones who are like, listen, I can see both sides of the argument and I like how you're speaking about it because it's a place of respect. And that makes it easier for people to want to fight with me because not fight against me, but fight in the same fight together with me. So we can make this world a better place.

Because I don't think people are happy the way things are right now. And they want it to change. I don't know how. So by me getting out there and kind of coming at it from a place of respect and seeing your shared humanity, they're more willing to join in, which is really the whole thing that I'm going for right now.

[01:06:34] LW: How do you see success? The idea of success today? I mean, you've made seven figures speaking, you've got a family, you've got a wonderful little dog, you have books, you have all the things, but what does success look like for you today? 

[01:06:50] SR: It's funny. it's almost the word I just shared. It's peace. I feel like you see so many people who make a bunch of money and way more than I could ever dream of making. They're unhappy, they're miserable, they don't have, their kids don't know who they are, wife is having an affair with the pool guy kids are on meth, it's like all these situations that are like, even though you have the trappings of financial success, you're suffering so deeply on the inside.

I crave peace. I want peace of mind. and that's something that I feel with this book, I find myself going down the path of oh, it's going to be a New York Times bestseller or else I'm so proud of this book. And I really, really think it's a really great book, but I also remind myself like, wait a second, peace.

There's a lot of New York Times bestselling authors who hate their lives, hate their existence, and would give up their New York Times bestseller status for a day of peace and a heartbeat. So when I find myself getting driven by those ego related goals, And there's nothing wrong with having ego related goals.

But I find myself if I'm driven by them, then I need to check myself. I'm like, listen, your goal is peace and peace brings me a lot of things. It brings me happiness. It brings me clarity. I am a meditator. That's why I felt like you and I connected so easily. I find. The way to just kind of center myself into focus on the things that truly matter, allow me to remain completely clear on what successes is to maintain and prioritize my piece.

And that's all I want. And if I feel, peaceful. I'm going to be a better dad, better husband, better speaker, better writer, better citizen. That's all I want. Just that peace. 

[01:08:31] LW: I'm probably a little further ahead than you are in terms of meditation, but you're a lot further ahead than I am in speaking. And I'm so glad you mentioned the part about authenticity because that's something I struggle with. I'm currently being coached. about, yeah. Bringing more research, and I'm constantly grappling with sharing personal stories versus sharing, more broad conventional anecdotes.

So I want to thank you so much for that little part because that's helped me a lot. There's a guardrail out there on the four or five. It's got a little stain on it and millions of commuters pass that guardrail without even noticing it. Every single day and you, I'm sure have passed by that same guardrail and it holds a whole other story for you. So what does that represent for you today when you pass by that spot? 

[01:09:19] SR: Hope and just the idea that I think hope is something that we really need more of in this world. I lost it so quickly due to the incivility and rudeness and unkindness that I was experiencing hope. And we're not alone. There's so many people here who are willing to help you give you love.

Nowadays, when you think about like the suicide height line, there's nine, eight, eight and other people that are able to help and serve and make this a better world. So it's, for me, it's hope. there's never going to be a time God willing where things get so ugly that I need to tap out and just be like, there's an absence of hope. There's always a way. And even when it's hard and I've had a lot of hard days, there's always hope. And I think that's the one thing that I would always tell people is to lean into hope. And part of our responsibility, I feel, is by giving those kind moments to others, those kind reflections, a smile here, a thank you here, a compliment there, and helping hand shoulder to cry on. We may be that one person that grants that hope to someone who's on the edge, unknowing to us. That they're even there. So that's why I feel like kindness and civility is more than just like the right thing to do it actually can help be a life sustaining and maybe a life saving force.

[01:10:34] LW: Beautiful, man. It's a great place to wrap it up. We didn't even get into a lot of the concepts from the book, but hopefully this was enticing enough of an interview to get people to go and explore your book, Civil Unity, Go Together, Make Work Work. And also to follow you on social media. I just followed you relatively recently because you just post the most incredible personal stories. So inspiring. And so I highly recommend everybody follow you on Instagram. 

You also have a viral post on Facebook that went viral during 2020 which is a really interesting concept as well that I think will be very eye opening for a lot of people. And In my eyes, at least become the mentor that you always wanted when you were a child, someone to give yourself permission to be yourself and, to be more civil and to be okay with, being an empath. And so I just want to appreciate you, give you your flowers. Thank you so much for taking time to come on to the show. and I look forward to seeing you again at some point soon. 

[01:11:35] SR: Heck yeah, my guy, man, you're that dude, man. So it's always a pleasure to connect. Thank you so much for taking the time to interview me and to get real with me and to allow me to share my story and continue lighting up the world with your light, puns intended. Thank you, my brother. Appreciate you. 

[01:11:53] LW: Absolutely, man. Thank you.

[END]

Thank you for tuning in to today's episode with Shola Richards. You can pick up a copy of Shola's new book, Civil Unity, everywhere books are sold. on the socials @SholaRichards, that's S H O L A. I'll definitely put links to everything that Shola and I discussed in the show notes, which you can find at LightWatkins.com/podcast. 

And if you found this conversation valuable I highly recommend checking out my past interviews with other powerful voices in the mental health and personal growth space. For example, my conversation with Baratunde Thurston, which is episode 78. He talks about how he turned his rock bottom moment of being fired from the daily show into a mission to inspire others.

And also check out Christine Platt, who's also known as the Afro Minimalist. She's episode 68. And you can hear how she navigated divorce and a major career shift that led her closer to her mission. 

And if you enjoy these conversations, please consider leaving a quick rating or a review. Ratings make a huge difference in helping new listeners find the show. And also it makes it more likely that other guests like Shola are going to come on and share their story. 

It only takes a moment. Just go to the Apple podcast app, type in the name of the show, scroll down past the first few episodes, and you'll see a space with five blank stars. Just tap the star all the way on the right to give us a five star rating. And if you're feeling generous, leave a sentence or two about why you enjoy the show. 

As always, you can watch these episodes on my YouTube channel. If you prefer a visual element to the story, be sure to subscribe there as well. And for those of you who really want to go deeper, you can join my Happiness Insiders online community, where you can get access to the full uncut version of the interviews, along with masterclasses and 108 day challenges that are designed to help you unlock your highest potential.

And don't forget to check out our plot twist episodes, which are short, powerful clips from previous episodes where guests share the moment that their life took the dramatic turn towards their purpose. So you can look out for those each Friday. And I'll see you back here next week for another inspiring story about somebody ordinary doing extraordinary things. 

And until then, keep trusting your intuition, keep following your heart, keep taking those leaps of faith. And remember, if no one's told you lately that they believe in you, I believe in you. Thank you, have a fantastic day, and I'll see you on Friday for the next plot twist.