234: How to Heal After a Breakup, Cultivate True Love, and Build Healthier Relationships with Mark Groves, Human Connection Specialist and Author of Liberated Love

In this enlightening episode of The Light Watkins Show, Light sits down with Mark Groves, a human connection specialist known for his candid and practical approach to improving relationships. Mark’s journey from a successful career in pharmaceutical sales to becoming a relationship coach is a testament to his passion for helping others build healthier, more fulfilling connections.

Mark dives deep into his personal experiences, sharing how his father played a pivotal role in shaping his emotional intelligence. He reflects on how these early influences, along with the ups and downs of his romantic relationships, have guided his understanding of love and emotional vulnerability.

One of the key concepts discussed is the idea of a “sacred pause” in relationships—a practice Mark believes can be transformative for healing and growth. He also opens up about the difficult decision to break off a five-year engagement, offering valuable insights into recognizing misalignment in relationships and having the courage to make tough choices.

Listeners will also learn about Mark’s transition into relationship coaching, his focus on breaking codependent patterns, and the practical tools he uses, such as cold exposure and breath work, to enhance emotional regulation and relationship health. Mark and his wife, Kylie, recently co-authored Liberated Love, a book that explores these themes and offers actionable advice for creating authentic, liberated relationships.

Tune in to discover how you can apply these lessons to your own life, whether you're looking to improve your relationships, navigate personal growth, or simply understand yourself better.

Transcript

MG: “I had an immense amount of anxiety. I had an immense amount of fear. I had an immense amount of what's wrong with me that I don't want this? And when I look back, what I was really experiencing was that I was creating a life I didn't want. You could experience the same thing in a job. You can experience it in many things. I see now that the pathology of anxiety is not having access to choice, because if you have access to your voice, you get to choose your life. If you can't share how you feel and have access to a yes or a no, your life gets steered based on where you let it. And now, I can look back and be like, holy, that was the first moment where I made a choice in so many years. I can't even remember the last time where it - one, hurt someone else, and two, it meant that I could be judged by everybody around me.”

[INTRODUCTION]

Hello friends, and welcome back to The Light Watkins Show. I'm Light Watkins, and I love to interview ordinary folks just like you and me who've taken extraordinary leaps of faith in the direction of their path, their purpose, or what they've identified as their mission in life. And in doing so, they've been able to positively impact and inspire the lives of many other people who've either heard about their story or who've witnessed them in action or people who've directly benefited from their work. 

And what I found after conducting hundreds of interviews with luminaries who have discovered their purpose is that there was always a moment where they hit upon some sort of internal crossroads where they could have either gone in the direction of fitting in. Or they could go in the direction of being themselves. And 99.9% of the time, the people who ended up finding their calling were the ones who chose, and sometimes against all of the odds to be themselves. It's really that simple. And I think that we need to hear these stories over and over and over in order to build up the courage and the confidence to do the same thing in our lives, right? To keep choosing to be ourselves, because it's not about just making one choice in order to find your calling and properly see it through, you're going to have to make that choice hundreds, if not thousands of times, because as you get older, you realize that the world really isn't set up for people to be themselves.

So it's an extremely scary and uncertain process to choose yourself again and again. And I know from experience how much you will constantly question yourself and your path. But if you can stick with it, eventually you become the model for what it's like when someone follows their path. And that's when people want to write books about you and invite you onto their podcast to hear your story.

And today I'm in conversation with a former pharmaceutical sales rep turned human connection specialist. His name is Mark Groves. You've probably seen Mark all over the socials. He's got a massive Instagram following, YouTube following, a massive podcast. And he's taken the relationship space by storm over the past 10 years after breaking off an engagement that just didn't feel right to him. 

And that led him to seek out the science behind relationships and human connection and then he started posting his thoughts about relationships on Facebook. And that got a massive response and he became prolific in his writing. And then that helped him to become more and more of a thinker, thought leader in the space. 

And eventually, Mark decided to take the leap of faith out of his pharmaceutical sales rep job and into becoming a full time relationship coach with a focus on helping people who were as confused as he wants was to make sense of whatever they were experiencing in their relationship, particularly when it came to codependency, emotional intelligence and becoming more self-aware. 

And so in this conversation, Mark and I go into his background. We take a look at how his darkest moments were actually the gateway to his true calling. That's almost always the case. By the way, we also talk extensively about his philosophy on relationship, which he and his wife Kylie outlined in their recent book, Liberated Love. And this includes the concept of taking a sacred pause after a relationship appears to not be working and then coming back to the 2.0 version of that relationship, which is a pretty cool technology. 

We also talk about which tools can help with emotional regulation when you're in the heat of the moment and you're getting triggered by your partner as well as the importance of self expression when attempting to maintain integrity and relationships. And of course we discussed what it was like for Mark to write the book with his now wife while also preparing for the birth of their child.

So this episode is going to leave you with many refreshing insights, including how to cultivate emotional intelligence, how to recognize misalignment and relationships. How to take a sacred pause, how to be more authentic and less unconsciously manipulative, how to break codependency once and for all, how to co create in partnership and much, much more.

So without further ado, I introduce you to the coauthor of Liberated Love and the host of the Mark Groves Podcast, Mr. Mark Groves.

[00:05:36] LW: Mark Groves, man, you've been on my short list of podcast guests for many years since I first started this podcast. And I'm so excited to finally, finally, finally, finally be having this conversation with you. So thank you very much for making time to come on. 

[00:05:53] MG: Oh man, it's so good to be here. I mean, we have orbited one another for a long time and spoken on stages together. You've been on mine. So  I'm excited to be able to provide whatever value I can to your audience. 

[00:06:06] LW: Awesome. Awesome. So I'd love to start the conversation off talking about the early days. And, I know you were Canadian-born and raised in Calgary, I believe. And I did some research, read some stuff about your dad being your sort of relationship  counselor growing up. He would always have this wonderfully emotionally intelligent stuff to say. Where did he get that from? Was it something that he shared with your brother and your sister? Or was it just you who went to him for counsel? Talk a little bit about those early days and the relationship you have with your dad and your mom. 

[00:06:46] MG: I've never thought of did he have that with my sister and my brother. I would say that he probably didn't as much, but they weren't in the conversations I was having with him either, so he could have. But I think I really oriented towards wanting to figure out romantic love from a very young age. And my dad would ask me a lot of questions. So I wouldn't say it was something I would have immediately gone to him for. But he would always inquire ever since I can remember as even a little guy, just like about what I'm experiencing.

And then, of course, as what you experienced starts to be relating, that becomes the subject and my brother and I are from my dad. My mom and my dad was married before and got divorced, and then met my mother and had my sister with his first wife, but I always grew up with my sister being my sister.

I never really thought much of that. And I have asked him did you have that level of emotional intelligence prior to or was it birth through your divorce? And he said, it was a bit of both and like, how can you not, if you're willing to learn from your divorce? So I consider myself so lucky because a lot of men don't get that from their father, a lot of people don't, but especially men.

And so there was a modeling of inquiry about relationship, even despite that I got betrayed in my late teens and then in my early 20s and I closed my heart, I made the idea that monogamy or relationship leads to heartbreak, commitment leads to rejection and abandonment and betrayal.

And I betray myself in those circumstances and yet, although that like narrative was operating at the baseline of my unconscious, I was in a relationship for 5 years after college. And she was an incredible woman, but I just couldn't choose the relationship. I didn't know why we got engaged.  

And when I got engaged, I met this moment. I was always taught to want and I realized I didn't want it. And I thought when I got engaged, all the anxiety and all the experiences I was having would go away because I did the thing.

Everyone told me I was afraid of commitment which I thought was ironic because, it's we want men who express themselves and are emotionally intelligent. Then the moment I would express myself, people would tell me, oh, that's not how you actually feel. You're not afraid. You're just afraid of commitment. You don't have anxiety, you're just afraid of commitment. This idea that you get walked away in shackles to your wedding. And I remember thinking, I'm supposed to feel differently than the way I feel when I do decide to do this. So that led me into learning about relationships on a much more linear level.

I was a pharmaceutical rep at the time, and so I had a background in science. And so I was like, okay, well, the safest way to learn about this is I'm going to go learn what the science says about relationships. And inevitably actually that led me to the book Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl, which was the first time I ever even thought of myself existing for a greater purpose than just being in a meat suit and becoming a good provider and getting married and dying, and having kids. So that was the first time I thought about purpose and it started to be awakened in me this idea like, oh, maybe I'm actually here to teach you out love to teach about the thing that I'm the most curious about that I'm trying to heal and fix and resolve.

And then I noticed, well, I'm like, well, why is no one fucking learning this? Like every, why didn't we get taught this? So yeah, that's sort of part of the evolution. 

[00:10:16] LW: Can you say more about what you were feeling when you were engaged that made you question whether or not it was the right thing to do and you inevitably called off the engagement, which is a massive choice to make? But yeah, what were you feeling? Because in case people are feeling similarly, talk about some of the specific signs and emotions and things. 

[00:10:39] MG: What I was experiencing psychologically was a lot of anxiety. I'm not sure I want to do this. I didn't want to vocalize that because I was afraid of what people would think.

And it was almost like I was just going along with the thing and following every next logical step and then getting engaged because that's what I was supposed to do and I thought it would buy me time, if I did that. Then she wouldn't ask me why we're not engaged and then now I can delay the marriage part, but what I realized was actually by making the engagement by making the request, I realized that I was like committing to something and I didn't like what I was committing to because I knew I wasn't capable of it. And so I had an immense amount of anxiety. I had an immense amount of fear. I had an immense amount of what's wrong with me that I don't want this. 

And when I look back, what I was really experiencing was that I was creating a life I didn't want. You could experience the same thing in a job. You can experience it in many things. I see now that The pathology of anxiety is not having access to choice, because if you have access to your voice, you get to choose your life. If you can't share how you feel and have access to a yes or a no, your life gets steered based on where you let it. And now, I can look back and be like, holy, that was the first moment where I made a choice in so many years. I can't even remember the last time where it - one, hurt someone else, and two, it meant that I could be judged by everybody around me. And yet, I had no choice. I mean, I had choice, but I would have said if I had gotten married, I would have gotten sick. I could just tell my stomach was churning. I was always feeling ill. And what really brought it to a head is that I remember being asked three questions. I posted my story on this forum.

It was called the runaway bride. Runaway bride. It doesn't exist anymore, but it was where people would post about their fears, or they left a marriage they were uncertain about when they got engaged. And I posted my story, and this woman wrote back so many great posts. Incredible angels wrote me back she asked me three questions.

Could you imagine what it would be like if she left you tomorrow? Would you be okay? And I was like, yeah, I'd be okay. I feel relieved. Th second was could you imagine what it would feel like to wait for her at your altar, whatever your altar is? And I was like, oof, that gave me a lot of anxiety.

And the third question was, could someone else love her better? And that, question is what completely rocked me because it was the first time I oriented to the problem from not about like me, but like my inability to choose this was actually bringing someone else down misalignment. And I thought, yeah, someone else could definitely love her better, and she's worthy of that.

And the follow up question to that, of course, because that could be true for us and we could step to the plate, we could step up. Do you want to? And I didn't want to. And I didn't know why, but it was that not knowing why, but still choosing to say, no, that was the trust, the faith, and then it would be my adventure to be like, why, like, why, why can't I do this? I was living that question. 

And before I ended the engagement, I would look up on a search engine because I don't think Google existed at the time. I would look up “how do you know if she's the one?” that was like my point of inquiry. And then I realized that I wanted there to be a an explicit search result to that.

[00:14:11] LW: Yeah, man. You mentioned Man’s Search for Meaning. He talks about if you create a why for yourself, you can bear almost any how. But then you think, well, nobody wants to have to bear being married. You want to be married. You want to maybe even believe in the idea that there is a one, there is a soulmate. And people talk about how I knew right away, as soon as I met him, as soon as I laid eyes on him, that that was supposed to be my person. And it doesn't sound like you had those feelings. And were you still talking to anyone about this stage in your life? 

Because what a lot of young people do is they, talk to their peers and their peers, are right there in it with them. So you're not getting the best counsel, right? You're getting other people who… 

[00:14:55] MG: Are settling or other people who are leaving…

[00:14:58] LW: Or afraid of even to talk because I know in my experience, Mark, when I was growing up, my parents, they were married for 30 something years. They're divorced now. But I wouldn't describe it as a happy marriage, as a young person looking at them interact knowing what I know now, I wouldn't say that they were the model of what I ultimately wanted. So I don't know if I would have even gone to my dad and talk to him or anybody really in my family. So how did you navigate that?

[00:15:27] MG: When I was talking to my dad about it, actually, what was interesting. My mom and dad, they could feel my suffering. They could see, I was really stressed about this and they really liked my fiance at the time because she was very likable and that man, that was the hardest because if it's a shitty person, you're like peace. But she's incredible as a human. She's just incredible and she was everything on the list I desired. And I did have that feeling when we first met and dated. And the thing is I can see in hindsight, I was just terrified of being chosen by a woman. I was terrified of being chosen by someone who could fully show up and call me forward, but also love me because I hadn't navigated that betrayal I'd been through. 

I was unconsciously avoiding fully available people because I thought availability led to betrayal. So because I hadn't excavated that pain, it was steering my life and it was making me run from people who could really love me. When my dad was talking to him about it, I'll never forget where I was sitting on the phone, and he said to me that, oh, you're just afraid of commitment. This is just the next sort of leap. And, I said do you remember how you felt the day you got married to your first wife?

And he said, yeah. And I said, do you remember how you felt the day you got married to mom? Yeah. Were they different? Oh yeah. I said, I feel the first way. and it was like this moment that he like understood what I felt like I was living in this world of trying to figure this out on my own. 

[00:17:04] LW: What was your coping mechanism? Were you the guy sitting in the driveway for half an hour before you go?

[00:17:09] MG: Yeah. I mean you know what? It was alcohol. It was like, I found I was staying later after soccer and having beers or I was and when we broke up, I still had shadow coping mechanisms. I tried to go right back to my casual relationship. One night stand. I'll just bang my way out of this pain.

But anyone who's heard that saying to get over your ex, get under the next. Let me tell you. We all know it doesn't work and you might have to end up staying with that under the next and they become the next ex. So, I did see a therapist actually, though, because when we were about to break up. I recognized I needed to see somebody who was maybe more objective.

I only saw once because I walked into his office and he said to me, when people think they're making the right choice, 50% of the time they're wrong and they get divorced. And I was like, wow, we're a real Tony Robbins here. And then he said, for the people who think they figured it out and get married a second time, 70% of the time they're wrong and I was like, okay. And then he's like, when you came in here, you already knew the answer to what your question is. And it was a profound employee assistance program, truth telling, which I don't know is a common experience for that, but I never saw him again. I walked out that door and I did end the relationship permanently.

And I felt like a million pounds got lifted off my shoulders, but there weren't blogs and there was only music, music that just made you more sad, there wasn't like Instagram and people teaching. And now, you could look up navigating heartbreak and probably find a thousand reasonably okay teachers at it and probably a hundred exceptional ones and all their stuff is probably free.

[00:19:08] LW: I got a personal question. You don't have to answer it if you don't want to, but I think it can be helpful for people who may relate to what you're saying. When you ended it, looking back now, knowing everything you know, would you do it the same way or is there a different way that you would end it?

Because obviously you weren't Mark Groves, the relationship guy who has all this stuff. It's spirituality. And that was the beginning of just had a couple of beers and thought, okay, let me go and just get it out of the way.

[00:19:34] MG: I have often joke that and have reached out to including her to say I'm sorry that I didn't have the tools, and as I've had more awareness, as I've, shared those like I remember I wrote her probably four years ago and just asked my wife here, I wrote this to my ex-fiance. Are you okay with this? And she was like, yeah, that's great. And she wrote me back. Just like more awareness is wow, I just couldn't receive love.

I remember I had coffee with her years later and I said, you might've thought we just ended and I just went to the bar and partied. And I said, in some ways that was true. I said, but you were actually the birth of everything for me. And so I just have so much gratitude for that experience. 

And would I change it? Yeah. God, yeah. I mean, we write about in our book and my wife and I have done, cause we dated for four years, then broke up and then got back together and, now I have a kid and all the things, but we actually did a closing ceremony for our relationship.

And I wish I had access to even that idea of someone once say that you should leave your relationship as you leave a house, you prepare it for the next owner. And I thought oh, that's such a beautiful metaphor of you would, clean it up, you would paint the walls, you would, restore, you would grieve. And I got to do that with my now wife and I think in a lot of ways that was the birthplace of us coming back together because there was so much love present in the ending that there was a template created within both of us that love doesn't go anywhere when relationships change.

And so that creates this deep safety to actually love more. And I wish I had the tools to offer that to my ex fiancé to give her more understanding. But the truth is I didn't know why I was leaving. I didn't know why I didn't want to be with her. And I think that's probably the questions, although I don't want to project that on her.

[00:21:30] LW: But I feel like a lot of people, even aware, even like spiritually aware people who meditate and do all the things sometimes can have the messiest endings as well. And it's not until hindsight that we can reflect back and say, you know what? I'm not going to take things personally the way that it all went down and, I'm going to do better the next time.

We're all just learning as we go. I've been meditating for 25 years and I'm still very much in it like everybody else and having the imposter syndrome of maybe I'm a commitment phobe and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. The self talk. But anyway, so this was your crucible, right?

You were becoming what you are now. You've been reading the human behavior books. You didn't mention what it was in your book, but I'm imagining it was influence or how to win friends.

[00:22:24] MG: Yeah, it was How to Win Friends and Influence People, The Game, How to Get Anyone to Do Anything. It's because you're operating from fear because you're trying to control much the narrative you talked about of fear of commitment. I talk about that a lot of no one's afraid of commitment. They're just afraid of where commitment goes and it's usually unconscious. 

The other thing too, about like bringing closure endings, sometimes it's actually not safe to do a closing ceremony. A lot of people who are more desiring repair or can't be with a lack of repair, will put themselves back into unhealthy or toxic circumstances trying to get repair again. And so what I'm saying is not permission to do that. And you know who you are when I say it. 

And the second one is that it actually doesn't require the other person, if the other person's incapable, what you can do is just sit down with an empty chair and do a closing ceremony that way. And that could be like, you put on music, that means a lot to both of you that you light a candle and that represents the relationship that maybe you write out what you're ready to let go of and what you're learning from the relationship and then you burn that and you walk through what might be a something that symbolizes a threshold, something that symbolizes and you could set up like two pillars or two candles and you walk through it, but you don't go back through it. You walk through it. You blow the candles out. And they move to the side, something like that can be helpful. 

[00:23:52] LW: You also mentioned in your book, you said that people's main concern is, am I safe? Number one, and then can I be myself? And I know that's something I struggle with. I struggle with in every relationship is not, can I be myself? But to what degree can I be myself? Because the moment I hit up on a pocket of friction, I start recoiling, and I become like a 25% version of myself, just enough to keep the piece, keep things moving forward, and then eventually catches up with you every single freaking time. 

[00:24:25] MG: It isn't that the recoil always happens, and it's a cosmic two by four, usually, you start to realize that protecting people from the totality of who you are is actually not in service of love. And at the same time when you discover that you've been hiding parts of yourself, you then realize that you've been hiding them for a long time and probably, recurring circumstances. And so what you're saying, I experienced too. And now, mine is like this next leveling of like, how do I continue to access more voice, more truth?

Because I think, what we experienced on a micro interpersonal level, we're experiencing on a massive cultural level. Can you stand in what is reality and face being canceled? Face being called a name that you're terrified of being called? And I think, we're really seeing that come to a head.

So what's going on or what as they say, as above, so below as within, so without, I think, we're resolving and healing these patterns on a massive level and to heal them culturally. We have to heal them interpersonally first, because that's how you bring self to culture. So the greatest act of revolution is self expression. And that is true in love because the same liberation that experiences when you say, this is what's true, whether you choose to be in this relationship or not, we're not going to ignore this anymore. Oh, everyone's free. Everyone likes that even though you just dropped the elephant, right? The elephant's already there. So you're like, that's the elephant. And everyone goes, fuck, I knew that was there. And then they're like, oh, I have all these adaptive strategies. So I don't have to look at the elephant. I'm going to end this or I'm running or I'm going to get mad about you pointing at it.

And what you do is you get back into the meditative state because we usually leave it in that moment and you realize that it's about staying in your center and what a gift it is to know all of you. And so we have to believe that to be true to make it revealed. 

[00:26:23] LW: Yeah. I want to unpack so many things in what you said, but there's one other piece to your life story that I would like to just talk about, which is your transition from pharmaceutical sales. I'm sure you were making into the, six figures and talk a little bit about those early days. Were you doing like one-on-ones with people? Were you posting a lot and getting some traction and opportunities to speak? What was that transition like? How long did it take? Did you monkey branch? You held on to your last sales meeting and then you grabbed the opportunity or?

[00:26:58] MG: From a national sales meeting right into a retreat…

Well, from the day that my engagement ended, I was about 27 and a half. I'd say it took me a couple of years. Maybe four, three years about 29, 30, I was sent a Ted Talk. And then all of a sudden I was like down the rabbit hole of Ted Talks. And I found all these teachers. I couldn't believe that I could get 20 minutes of these profound thinkers.

And it brought me to listening to more Tony Robbins, more Gary Vaynerchuk. Like Gary Vaynerchuk had a keynote he gave that was on there Helen Fisher, the Brain in Love, she's incredible. She actually just passed this last week. Sue Johnson, the Gottmans, I had the Hendricks, and Helen Hunt. I mean, Marianne Williamson, like you're brought to all these people that of course, you've been exposed to and it's like Eckhart Tolle, you get just Carolyn Mace actually was. It has and continues to be a profound teacher for me, Abraham Hicks.

So it started with my own experience, as you said, the crucifix, the crucible, and it wa, then how do I fix this thing that's broken so that I can have great relationships and not fuck it up again, and not take someone else down this journey. And I started to I remember thinking like I was sitting with my friend at dinner and she said to me, what would you do if you would do anything?

And I was coaching her in soccer, actually coaching this woman's team. I said, I'd tour the world and speak about relationships. And she said, why don't you? And I thought, well, that's a great question. Why don't I? And I was deeply passionate about understanding. At this whole time, since I was in my teens, deeply passionate about understanding because I was in sales, how to manipulate human behavior. Like, how do I get someone to change products? And I started to see well, I'm really good at that. Why don't I use this to do good in the world, but why am I good at that? And not talking about my feelings. So it really led me down this rabbit hole of deeply understanding, and I started, I remember the first day I posted on my personal Facebook page something that I learned about relationship, I think I was 31, 32. 

And I remember I got like tons of replies to it just from people I knew on Facebook or didn't know. And I was so terrified that all the people I grew up with would be like, what is the fuck are you talking about? And what are you doing talking about this? And that was always my greatest resistance, now having read The War of Art. You realize that there's this force that's really trying to operate against you, stepping fully into yourself, stepping fully into creation and when you learn that's normal, I think that would have been great to know then, but that it's normal. 

[00:29:40] LW: You had been tarnished from the whole breakup, leaving the fiance. I'm sure the word on the street was that Mark's got some issues. 

[00:29:47] MG: Yeah. Not only did I have those issues about relationships. Yeah. Well, there was like passionate, two camps. There were the people who were like, holy crap, that was a massive decision and we're so proud of you. And then there was the other camp that was like, Mark is afraid of commitment and a classic fuck boy, which there was truth to all of those perspectives. So what was really powerful for me though, is that I knew the day I hit publish on the first thing that I could no longer be out of integrity. And so I almost needed to get to this place where I was still operating from these survival based places of avoiding intimacy, but experiencing intimacy, but controlling the depth of it through friends with benefits and one night stands, et cetera.

And I knew that the day I hit publish, I couldn't do that anymore. And so when I hit publish, it was done. And it was interesting because eventually I did face the voices that were like, what are you doing teaching this? You're not in alignment with that. And they were true about my previous me, the person, these people had known me to be, I would tell stories about getting random BJs. This is how I'd cultivated a status. This is how I'd cultivated a notoriety. This is how I cultivated protection so that people could see me. Mark's fine on the outside. Everything's good with him. He's just playing around. He's just enjoying life and dating and blah, blah, blah, blah. I was always honest with everyone I was relating to, but I was playing in the gray of language.

And I could see that now and I could see that the mechanism, I didn't want people to see that I was deeply suffering inside. That I didn't know how to do love. That I'd never dealt with these massive betrayals. And it was through writing, actually, that I started to reveal more of myself. It was like I was titrating my capacity for truth and, who I was. I had to confront who I was. And all this while I was a rep and I was working at a high level working in the hospitals and in the regions, launching products, et cetera, developing what we would call key opinion leaders. 

But at the time I had this really exceptional manager and she, help support me in getting going back to school and getting a doing a program in positive psychology. And so I was building up this skill set while I was working. And she knew I was, like straddling these two worlds because I was writing and I was starting to coach and I was transparent with my work that was going on. 

[00:32:22] LW: Were you posting on a regular basis now on Facebook? 

[00:32:25] MG: I was starting to, yeah. And then in 2013, December, I went through a breakup with a woman who ran social medias for like pubs or something. And she was like, you should start an Instagram account. And I was like, what's Instagram? Then I saw it and actually, after we broke up, I started it. So I used the fuel of that breakup and I started it and I would just post a picture and write about what I learned, what would relate it to the quote on the picture, or the meme.

And I was told, oh, you can't write long form content on there. It's not for quotes. It's not all the things that the resistance, the classic resistance. But at this point, I was consuming enough personal development work that I was aware that when you started to expand, because I'd experienced it so many times that someone had put it into language, that your expansion is going to threaten people who are not claiming their expansion.

You're stepping into your authentic truth, your path, your mission is going to be incredibly triggering to people who are not had context to that. And so I went to a program, one day workshop with Lisa Nichols, she said something that was profound for me, because I felt really out of integrity staying in pharma, because I was starting to learn about the inflammatory impact of emotion and all that stuff, and the corruption, and all the things that, once you poke your head in, you fall down the rabbit hole.

And she said, use your current job as an investor in your dream. And so I was able to reconcile this transition where I spoke to my soul and I was like, look, I just need to build this and then I'm good. And I think I had about 20,000 followers or something. When I left, I was on there for 14 months or something. I left in April of I want to say 2014. 

[00:34:16] LW: Did you have an idea of like, how much you needed to make ultimately to maintain the lifestyle that you had as a pharmaceutical rep? 

[00:34:23] MG: Yeah. I mean, as a rep, I was making with bonus, probably around 160 Canadians. So that's like 150,000 US, but it's probably about 110 US, something like that. And I had a car and gas and I was working there for 14 years. I had a pension. I had all the things. But I just couldn't do it anymore. You recognize that there's this abandonment that is occurring and the abandonment is becoming more costly and you're feeling, you're tasting truth. You're tasting reclamations, you're tasting power, you're tasting flow. And you're like, I'm going back to this place that doesn't have that. Fuck that. 

And I remember I scheduled a retreat that I did with my good friend, Vienna Farin, and it was in the April. And I gave notice in December to my boss, I'm going to leave in April. I knew that I had to just burn the boats. I knew I just had to leave. I was probably making something like 2,500 US a month in coaching revenue, et cetera. And we sold, I can't remember how many spots, I want to say 16 spots to this. And I made something like after all the costs, like 6,000 US, maybe seven. And I remember saying to a friend of mine, I had this beautiful  600 square foot penthouse in this area. Penthouse is a strong term. The building was from like 1940, but it was the top floor. So it gets that title. And it had a 500 square foot patio and I could see the ocean. It was so beautiful. And my rent was like I don't know, 1,800 a month. And I remember saying to my friend, I'm going to have to get rid of my apartment and move in with UBC, University of British Columbia students down the road and share a fucking house again.

And he was like, why don't you just make more money? And I was like, that's such a rational use the constraint to create. And so I did, and it probably took me about a year and a half, two years. By two years, I was making as much as I had made as a rep. And then that just kept getting exponential and exponential. And then in another rebirth that went and now I'm in the, rebirth again and the growing, so here I am. 

[00:36:26] LW: What did you do differently? Like when you had that restriction, you didn't have the pharmaceutical rep paycheck anymore, like what shifted that over those two years led to you being able to, bring in as much abundance and support as you had enjoyed doing this thing that you weren't really that passionate about? Was it a mindset thing? Was it like you just worked twice as much, but you were now spending 40 hours on your own stuff instead of spending 40 hours on their stuff.

[00:36:54] MG: Yeah. I mean, I was single at the time, so I was probably working. Yeah. 60, 70 hours a week. Because I was like, I posted every day. Sometimes three times a day in my peak in 2021-ish for eight years. So it was only in like the last, in those eight years, it was only in years six, seven, eight that I even repurposed any content. So I wrote every day. And I was committed to it. And that was the main thing. And I would say that, I was able to recognize that there were times when, I remember in the height of the, I forget the poet's name, but he was like super popular and he would always write about women stepping into their power.

Like she's a woman with a sword and she cuts the guy up, all these types of statements that are about like female empowerment, and those are great. I'm not negating those, but you knew that if you posted something like that, it would instantly do well. Like she got rid of him and stepped into her power and her voice. And now everyone's happy except for the guy. 

But what I noticed is I didn't want, that's not what wanted to flow through me. So I could see that there was this negotiation with, do I want to create content that does well, or do I want to create content that I know is what wants to come through me that I want to talk about.

But during COVID, I met more resistance in that time than I've probably ever faced like what I desired to actually speak about. But the resistance to the expression was stronger than I'd never confronted anything, including like getting a shadow ban for using a word and you really people think these things are just like mystical social media terms, but they're not. They're very much for real. If you say the wrong thing, have the wrong perspective. And then when I say wrong, it just means inconvenient. I'd say the differentiating factor that led to the exponential nature of abundance was the commitment to self expression and to authenticity and to alignment with integrity. I feel like I stepped out of that under the constraints of security and safety in 2021-ish, 2022, and then fully realigned and joined myself back up and in a lot of ways, and this is not a martyr story this is just the truth. Realigning cost me a lot, but I would trade it always again and again and again. Because the price of misalignment is too good on the body. It's too big. This is autoimmune. This is inflammation. This is thyroid issues. I see the correlation day in and day out with people who are not self expressed and when they finally step into self expression, mysterious things, they didn't know why they had shoulder pain goes away. It's miraculous, and this is true. Like the body keeps the score. It's all the same stuff. 

[00:39:50] LW: Yeah, this is really interesting, man, because you have to express yourself. That's what I write about. That's what I talk about. Authenticity, blah, blah, blah. And I don't want to get people to get triggered by this word, but as the leader in my relationship, I see myself as the leader, right? Not better than the other person, but just the one who's willing to take full responsibility for everything that happens. 

[00:40:12] MG: That's yours. 

[00:40:14] LW: That's mine. Yeah, that's me. And what I've noticed in my mind is that I know that by expressing myself, even in a very compassionate, as gently as I possibly can, giving all the nuance and everything that I think people deserve to have, especially if my opinion is solicited, if they ask me, what do you think? I can lead to two or three hours of having to really process this, the integration of my point of view with her point of view. And at the same time, I'm living my purpose. I'm creating my content. And I think to myself, I don't really want to distract myself from doing the things that I want to do and ultimately need to do in order to keep the whole train moving forward to stop and have to process this nuance thing for two hours with this person who, we're still obviously getting to know each other. And maybe my perspective isn't fully embraced or maybe hers isn't fully embraced by me, et cetera.

So I just don't say anything because I want to salvage my focus on the deeper work of the things that I'm doing. So I don't know if you can relate to that. I'm sure to some extent, maybe you can or can't, but what are your thoughts on sacrificing the authenticity for the work or vice versa, sacrificing the work to sit in it with this person. 

[00:41:45] MG: But for someone who's not feeling driven, there's no determination of how long is this thing going to be until we get to the other side of it. Yeah. Like how many hours we got? Because I got some stuff. 

It's interesting, right? Because you think what you're likely experiencing is not healthy processing, not to say it's unhealthy. But what I mean by that is that someone who constantly needs to process things likely needs to be in the experience of processing to feel important. So we're like, if you and I had a conflict and we sat down, I would imagine that we could resolve that fairly quickly and get to a place of understanding and self expression and validation and empathy pretty quickly because we have the language and validation.

Neither of us are stuck in some sort of story about it, right? But for a lot of people, especially like let's say that heterosexual dynamic where a woman maybe didn't have a present and attentive father, maybe left, maybe abandoned, maybe doesn't know their father, that experience of like processing, they're actually playing out the need to like really know their father to know them.

And so when we use confusion or misalignment or the need to dialogue as a way of connecting, it can feel draining because the intention of the connection is not for clarity, but just to be in each other's experience. So if I have to stop sharing with you how I feel, then that doesn't mean I'm sacrificing authenticity, although I'm not getting to be the totality of myself with you.

I'm actually avoiding draining my life force because it's not enlivening for me because the wound is actually feeding off of the conversation. I have a few friends I can think of who have that desire to really process things. And I know, and we've talked about where that comes from and there's self reflection that there's not an ability to self regulate. 

So the regulation, the nervous system, is seeking to regulate. Safety through being with others. So if they're not with others, they're not safe. So they really need to process everything. And also that disagreement means a lack of safety. So if you and I don't agree on something, which I'm sure we don't agree on something, we're still going to be friends. There's no condition. But for people who have experienced conditions, which a lot of religious people who have been raised in religious households, would be able to relate to that if I don't agree with everything the church says, then maybe my family, I've actually witnessed families get rid of people. I've witnessed the religion get rid of people. And so innately, there's a fear that disagreement came in. It could also mean we got hit, we got hurt, we got abused, we got yelled at, so disagreement is not safe. We need to maintain cohesion all the time because there's this idea that assimilation means safety. Although what assimilation does is it removes polarity.

[00:44:43] LW: Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. And I think that's a good lead into what Liberated Love actually means, right? And I love that you shared that you post it three times a day for years and years and years, and you never repurpose content because I think people take for granted when they read a book like yours, like you just pick up the book, you read it, but these are thoughts that have been organized, in a very elegant way over many, many, many, many years of processing. And every time you put something out there, especially if you go public with it, you're going to get all kinds of perspectives back, people taking it personally, people projecting on you, people saying this is exactly what I needed to hear. And so you learn how to put your work through all of those filters before you hit publish on it. 

And a lot of times, brevity is the hardest to write because it's easier to just. Put it all out there to apply to everybody's situation. But obviously you're not going to have the space or the time to get into it in those ways. So it's just beautiful to see a treatise that kind of breaks down almost every aspect of the love process in the book, Liberated Love.

And it's also a book that you co-wrote with your now wife. and so that's an interesting element as well I don't know her, but I'm assuming you're like traditional male. She's traditional female, which means you have different ways of seeing things. And if there seemed like there was a lot of symmetry in wow you all expressed your principles, the relationship 1.0, the Sacred Pause, the Relationship 2.0. So I guess first things first, man, let's talk about what is love. This is a question I ask every single person that I'm dating. How do you define love? Because I think as a society, we take for granted that everybody thinks love is the same thing. But people can have vastly different ideas of what love means, what conditions are placed upon it, if any, right? So how do you all define love? 

[00:46:43] MG: I define it as a fierce dedication to the truth. The truth is love. Those are synonymous. And we start the book out sharing a quote from Ram Dass, where he talks about that. Like, why not use the relationship in service of love and service of truth? And for me, what I mean by that, because of course, the experience of something like a word truth can feel very subjective, right? It's if I say, think of a tree, you might think of a spruce and I'll think a pine tree. And that doesn't make either of our perspectives wrong. What it means is that there's a deeper understanding of the word tree for example, by you and I having a conversation about it. And so when most relationships actually pivot around the avoidance of hard conversations, they pivot around the fear of dysregulating emotion. And when we do that, we're not in recovering. All of us recovering. 

And what's really fascinating about having written the book, and I appreciate what you said about these are experiences and thoughts and feelings that have transcendence since I even started questioning and thinking about relationship. And of course they were seated much younger, but they were able to be formulated and thought of and criticized. and then they met someone else who did the same thing and we did it together and we broke up and then we explored when we came back together. We're like, holy, we did this thing that no one's ever taught us that we did. And we saw some of the best people in the world. And we were like, these things need to be together. There needs to be a conversation about these baseline sort of like logistical skill sets and understandings of relational patterns. But man, it's so incomplete without a conversation about the nervous system, because that's really at the basis of everything.

And then what are some practical ways we can actually create freedom in our relationship? Because, if I said to someone what is the number one skill set you need to learn in a relationship? I'd say almost everyone will say communication. And yet, almost none of us actually take the time to master communication.

And yet, if you master relationship, which means mastering communication too, you'll master life because it's all the same stuff. And so, everything is made better when you're better at relationship. So if you just do that one skill, like you become a better sales person, you become a better networker, you become a better at everything. And I think when you explore the dynamics that you experience in relationship, just by picking up a book or listening to this podcast, you're taking the time to say how I relate matters. Who I am matters. How I show up matters. And writing the book with my wife was like a profound experience because you have two worlds that have to come together and make a separate world. Like a separate third entity and it was so beautifully representative of how we see relationship which is that our relationship is actually separate from both of us both of us coexist as separate entities that we the space between us is the relationship and so it has to be treated as sacred we talk about in the book that one of the principles of liberated love is mutual sense of positive regard like this idea of just like, how do I hold you in the highest possible esteem, especially when I don't want to, because that's, let's be honest, and honoring each other's path. Because you know what you're talking about is your path is so important to you. But how do we use the friction of our relationship to actually both come more alive, both create more purpose, both step more fully in our voice. 

And what I've learned, which I'll just like button up this rant, is that when I started to discover my voice and the word no, and yes, and really authentically connecting to that, because I was a people pleaser, so like people pleasers, their no is really bullshit.

It's like what I started to realize when I was authentically saying no to things is that myself. And what I agreed to existed so much, so much further back. It was like, every time I said no, I was like, Oh, actually we should say no to that. And then that, and then that, and you start to take up more and more space. And then you realize you're allowed to take up space. And if you value your own space and your own boundaries, your own sovereignty and your own self expression, you'll value that in other people. It's people who don't have access to boundaries that don't like boundaries. 

[00:51:07] LW: Speaking of boundaries, you talked about and communication, I think if you can have a hard conversation, if you learn the art of having a hard conversation. Then you can pretty much you can relate to anybody, right? But the question is, how do you do that? Do both partners need to be at the same level of self awareness in order to have that heart conversation? Because you also talk about blind spots. You talk about hooks, emotional hooks, particularly like gaslighting. And people aren't intentionally trying to gaslight anybody. It's just that it's like they switch into this mode that makes it very difficult. If you feel like I'm trying to be self aware, I'm trying to own my experience, but for some reason it's not translating. When I'm getting reflected back what this person is hearing or feeling or experiencing. So what are some tips for people out there who need to have a hard conversation like now? We need to talk about this now, but they're afraid of making it worse. 

[00:52:12] MG: The first thing is that no one person can do the work of two in a relationship. And I think if you identify that way, you should read our book because we really talk about that. It's you have to stop taking up the space that the person needs to step into. We have to create the space to invite them forward and then through their own autonomous choice, they step forward into it. Because you've ever had someone say you have to do this, or you have to read this, or I need you to. There's a resistance that's innately there especially for people who are avoiding understanding more about themselves in relationship, like they have to meet that moment and that choice of their own volition.

But with that said, I think we can invite them there in different ways that are more likely to get received because saying I want you to listen to this fucking podcast is probably not going to get the podcast. But if you said, hey, like you and I, that's important to me, our relationship is really important to me and me understanding you on a deeper level is important to me. And I want to know what are some ways that would be helpful for you to feel like I'm making that effort and the other person gets to respond or not. we're actually going to talk about the things that are hard in our relationship in service of both of us.

One of my favorite quotes from the Gottman's is relationship masters don't leave each other in pain. They repair, they repair, they repair, and that's something that is just at the core of really good relating is we don't want to leave each other in suffering. So if you're someone who's like, I want to have that hard conversation, but I'm afraid it won't go well.

One, you can learn the skills. So the first, might be like, hey, I really wanted to be able to share something with you. Do you have a moment? and then these are really courageous conversations. 

So, I was thinking of that quote from We Built a Zoo, that movie, which is, this is the only quote I'll ever bring from that movie. But that one where they say everything profound in life just requires 10 seconds of absolute courage, or 20 seconds. And I think about that can you just dig deep and find 10 seconds of just unbridled courage that allows you to say, I miss you, I'm mad at you, I'm frustrated, I miss us, or this isn't working for me right now.

And then I'd really like it to, or I wouldn't. So we were like, really just saying, just need to get these truths that are in me, outside of me. And Ram Dass has this thought that to be an integrity is for the truths to live within you, to be the truths that live outside of you. And when those are not in alignment, you send a message of love and fear.

And I think we always aspire for that. I think I spent the majority of my life unconsciously not doing that. And then when I finally became aware that it was like by making what is inside, outside. I was free and not making anyone responsible for me to feel accepted for that, because that's the hook, I need you to validate my self expression and it's no, you don't use your voice so someone validates it. You don't use your voice. So someone says, I like your boundary. You use your voice to hear yourself. And that's actually where the healing is. 

[00:55:39] LW: Yeah, man. Ram Dass was a G when it came to relationships. I love the, best thing you can do for me is work on yourself. The best thing I can do for you is work on myself. 

[00:55:47] MG: And I like just so profound. It was like this level of self responsibility. A lot of relationships are not founded on that. And you know, Stan Taken, who's a world renowned therapist, psychotherapist. He talks about how the reason relationships fail is they fail to create agreements at the start. And this isn't anyone's fault. It's that we're not taught that, like, how are we going to handle conflict? How are we going to navigate disagreements? What are we going to do when one person is feeling unheard and unsafe? What's the strategy so that you create these agreements about it. 

And then, what are we going to do when we're both like really lit up and things aren't good. Do we have a safe word? And I remember hearing a couple talk about saying, I love us too much to continue right now. And then that being like, but I want to come back to this. I want to hear it, but I feel like we're just both too lit up to do that, too activated. And, it's funny because I know that skill set, I know that. And when my wife says that, I'm like, oh, I want resolution. Don't you try to get away right now. 

[00:56:52] LW: Yeah, that's something that my ex and I did fairly well. We would get to a point where we would admit, look, we're having different experiences right now. And that means let's just take a little breather and then come back to it. And then I share five things that I'm grateful for about her. She shares five things about me that she's grateful for. And what I also noticed is that with all the systems and frameworks that we developedd as we were trying to sail the boat, we were trying to learn how to build the boat. They would expire. They wouldn't be as useful down the line as they once were. So we'd have to iterate. We'd have to evolve them. We'd have to change different things. 

[00:57:29] MG: Need a more sophisticated tool because the problems get more sophisticated. The wounds are deeper. You're like getting the depths of when a wound is activated, it's a sacred moment, it's saying I trust this experience or don't, but it's being brought forward.

And imagine if the human you're related to and you provide this for someone else saying I really see you suffering right now and like our priority as a couple is to help resolve this and so that I'm in such a different way of orienting to love than like instead of this. it's like walking side by side in the park challenges in front of us, not between us. 

[00:58:08] LW: Yeah. The other thing to be aware of I found is that when someone is triggered, and this is just from my work in meditation, I've done deep study into stress and how stress, the triggering effect can shut off the prefrontal cortex, which then reroutes everything to your amygdala, which gives you two options, running and fighting. And those really literally feel like the best reactions, whatever the person said is to fight them get either through confrontation, argumentation, stonewalling, passive aggression, et cetera, or get the hell out of there, escape and avoid the situation altogether. So I think it's important for people to understand that because you, write in the book, you say attachment work is actually nervous system work. And when someone's nervous system is, experiencing the 4th of July effect, my words. 

[00:59:01] MG: I like that. 

[00:59:02] LW: You can't expect to have a rational, reasonable conversation with them in that moment. 

[00:59:08] MG: No. And even the idea that we think we can. But what's so interesting too, when you ask someone when they're really activated. How old do you feel right now? The first age that comes to them will be very relevant to usually where the imprint of that reactivity or automated system comes from. And I mean, I know you deeply in your work, this is deeply relevant, if that's the automated way, then if all of a sudden I'm in an activation and I go, oh, let's go this way. Instead, the neural pathway, the mind, the nervous system is all going like no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Even though that's health, even though that's wellbeing, it's not familiar. So you have to forge a new path in your brain. And that requires mindfulness that requires, meditation as a skillset is so imperative because it turns that perceivably 0.1 seconds into one second, and that completely changes your life. 

[01:00:04] LW: I find it hard to, get someone out of that state. For myself, it's almost like we have to be able to have tools that we've already rehearsed and practiced in anticipation of getting out of that state. And I guess if we don't have them, the next best tool is an apology and just right. I was just triggered right now and I don't think people realize how far that can go by just so powerful, acknowledging it, owning it and asking for forgiveness even sorry for being triggered because then it gives the other permission to do the same thing. And those are other moments in my relationship that I'm really proud of. It's when I personally was able to say as the meditation guru who knows all about stress, I was just triggered just then. And what you saw in me yelling or whatever is not who I am. It's not who I want to be. That was 10 year old Light, whose mom didn't give him the benefit of the doubt.

And just talking about it in that way was so liberating. So liberating that we could regulate. We could self-regulate because that word, that term comes up a lot these days. You need to regulate. 

[01:01:20] MG: You need to regulate regulators. Yeah, there's the practical tools, right? Like meditation. I'd say cold water exposure is actually very powerful. The reason is that when you are experiencing cold water, and let's say you do it for 10 seconds, the first time you ever do it, your body is saying you're going to die. But if you can actually be with that, you realize you're not going to die and you realize you can handle hard things. So you start to increase your capacity for discomfort and that actually translates relationally. 

Breathwork, again, another way to learn how to regulate as you're starting to feel yourself get activated. Regulation boundaries are really good for regulation because they create rules around how you're going to engage and that will allow you to feel safe.

And ultimately what I'm saying when I say that is that you have access to what does work and doesn't work for you, and you trust that if something that doesn't work is present, you're going to remove yourself from the circumstances or change them. So, ultimately, what it's saying is when shit goes down, I have my own back and I know I have my own back. I have the evidence that I have my own back. And when you do that, when you have access to your voice, you have access to a deep sense of trust and knowing that you're the one who creates safety for yourself. You're not waiting for somebody else to do it for you. I'd say the most powerful way to begin to step into that level of, trust access of voice is by starting to keep small promises to yourself.

It seems trite or unimportant to say, hey, if you make a commitment to make your bed every day, that's unimportant. But it's not, it's actually incredibly important because what it does is it builds the, equity and the evidence that when you say you're going to do something, you do it. And if you find yourself the four agreements is a great book to always come back to, but one of them is. You are your word. So you realize if you say you're going to work out tomorrow and you don't, you might be like, well, no one else knows that I didn't, but you do. And that's actually the most important, we can use community to help change because we make a commitment to the collective and the shared values of the community hold us to our values. But really at the end of the day, it's our word with ourselves and our relationship with ourselves. 

[01:03:40] LW: I love the cold shower suggestion because literally and figuratively, you're in the heat of the moment and the cold shower can douse that heat. And it's something I've been actually doing myself for many months now. Every day I take a cold shower and there's nothing that gets you. I equate it to maybe rock climbing. Can get you as present as you are in the cold shower, but in both of those situations, it's hard to go find a rock climbing wall when you're in the heat of the moment, but you can always go into the shower and just turn on the cold water for, like you said, 10 seconds, and it just drops you right into the moment.

Because even with meditation, I talk about how there's no such thing as an emergency meditation, because all you're going to do is end up thinking about whatever the thing is, and it's not going to feel very meditative when you're going through that experience. But I love that. I love that idea of the cold shower.

I'm going to try that if I get into another situation like that soon. See how, what kind of effect that can have. 

Okay. So you talk about relationship 1.0 and then relationship 2.0, and then there's this thing in the middle called the sacred pause. And as we said, you can have these ungraceful endings to the relationship. Are you suggesting that a sacred pause, which is a moving away from each other to heal and whatnot, is that something that's premeditated? Is that something that happens just coincidentally? With intention perhaps to come back at some point later or to talk a little bit about the sacred pause concept?

[01:05:08] MG: Yeah, so when we broke up and then got back together, Kylie named that the Sacred Pause and she jokes, that's what you get to call it when you get back together. But otherwise, it's just a breakup. Yeah. Nobody thinks about getting back together. We were like, hey, you could use this technology regardless. 

So if you're in a relationship with someone and you actually desire to move through patterns, you can actually create what we would call a sacred pause, but you would create the agreements. You can live with that person. You can have kids with that person, and you can actually create the agreements to stop the patterns that you're currently doing and make agreements around creating new patterns. 

And we talk about that in the book, like, how would you navigate that? What would that look like? But if you're going through a breakup, recently I was working with someone who said they went through a breakup and then they were talking to me, they had read our book and she said that they were going through a sacred pause and I said, well, did you guys agree that you were going to take time apart and then come back together?

And she said, no. And I said, well, then it's not a sacred pause. It's a breakup. and you've made it a sacred time for you because there's no contact for three months. So that's your choice, but you're calling it a pause because you're still holding on to hope. And the only way to actually heal is to get right with reality and the reality is the relationships over. And so you have to actually be with that reality because that's the liberating truth because then if you can acknowledge the relationships over. Then at least you can heal and move forward. And if you desire that person to come back into your life or desire to create another relationship or desire to potentially do either of those, you just want to be able to acknowledge all of those possible outcomes.

But what I'll say that a sacred pause does from that breakup perspective is it says, I'm going to double down on me. I'm going to go into healing boundaries. I'm going to step fully into myself. I'm going to notice that I want to be with them when it's done, but I'm going to move towards it doesn't matter. And what's inevitably happens if you take three months to do that, is by the time you get to the end of the three months, you don't want the beautiful relationship you've built with yourself to be disrupted anymore. Like you found such a standard of your own behavior and integrity with your word that you don't fuck around anymore. You're like, I'm not, I have no interest in that. And so you, start to realize that I'm such a stickler to languages is it's not about getting back together, even though you can desire that it's about meeting moving forward. So are they on your path of progress? If they're not on your path to progress and you have to go backwards.

Then you don't want that because you have to go back to who you were and you have to let go of the things you've just built. And you're going to feel that in your body. From a dating perspective, we talk about taking a sacred pause. If you're single, just out of a relationship where you actually don't engage with the sex that you're interested in, you just don't engage at all.

Like no sourcing, no sexting, no thirst trapping, no nothing. And what you start to experience is you've disconnected from the drug. That makes you compromise your choices and you start to explore through our book. We do it all these different patterns and all these ways that you've related and you start to heal.

And, I have someone who was like recently, I was like, so yeah, we gave him this agreement. She needed to go into a sacred and she said, but I've already done a sacred. And I was like, okay, when, tell me about it. Well, no, I've been single for four years. And I was like, that's not a sacred box. 

[01:08:41] LW: You can't retroactively go back and label.

Right. Right. 

She's 

like,

[01:08:44] MG: But I haven't dated anyone. Well, I've dated and I've been on Tinder and I've been on Bumble, but I haven't been in a relationship. I'm like, yeah, but you haven't intentionally created a space that is sacred for yourself. And you know, this technology is, used throughout history is like going into this experience of self, like fully immersed in self. And of course what inevitably happens, I'd say it's a hundred percent of the time I've never seen it not happen, is that somewhere in that pause where we're not dating. We get presented with the perfect test to break our agreements and some of us will break them there's nothing wrong with that.

It's just that you have to get back into the container. And if you know that it's coming, then you're able to see it. And anyone who wants you to break an agreement with yourself to be with them is a red flag anyways. 

[01:09:38] LW: I feel like that's true with any transformational work. You're going to be tested. If you're doing it properly, there's going to be a test. 

[01:09:44] MG: Like a good test, like a test, like a booty covered in coconut oil. Like that kind of test. Like it's always like this almost fully ready, almost blah, blah, blah. I worked recently with a woman who she broke her pause a week before and she was asking a question. She was in a group that we were running and she was really funny. She was saying, oh, I met this guy and I was a week from my container, but he was so aligned and dah, dah, dah, dah, and here's what happened. And she's telling this story. And I don't know if I can choose him. I don't know if I trust myself or he doesn't feel like I don't know. And I was like, wait, wait, wait, you broke your container. And she's yeah, no, whoa. You're just going to drop that just move on from that. I'm like, that's the most important piece.

Of course you don't trust your choice in him. You don't trust you. You didn't trust yourself in relationship to him. You only had a week. And you left yourself a week before you got to get back in your container and he was not aligned eventually. That was figured out, but she went back into her container for another three weeks. Just to like really be with that and she was crying because there was this recognition that she had broken her trust and her agreements with herself for him, which that is such a powerful knowing because then you realize that you still have leaky spots where you're willing to compromise your own values and agreements for, connection, which is what we're healing. That's the whole point is can you be you and be in a relationship? Can you hold onto yourself and be in love? And that is the hardest work, man. That's the hardest work. 

[01:11:27] LW: And the other side of that equation is that if that person is truly the right fit, they can wait three weeks. They can wait a month. They can wait three months. They can wait. 

[01:11:38] MG: It'd be the hottest shit ever. If someone was like, I'm in this container, nice to meet you, but I right now do not want to engage. I'll take your number. And if it feels aligned when we're done, I'm in. If not, I'm open to exploring it. If not, all good. That's bad ass. You're the other person's waiting like three weeks. That's all I got to wait. 

[01:11:57] LW: All right. So you all wrote this book together. What are some misconceptions that people may have around relationship experts, writing a relationship book? 

[01:12:07] MG: Yeah, that it's done with ease and joy. That might be the first one. It was hard, man. Because we were like moving a lot at the time we were, my wife got pregnant during that time. We actually submitted the manuscript. The final manuscript the day before our son Jasper was born. And it was a lot of preparation for birth really. Because, as I said earlier, a child is two people's DNA coming together and create the separate entity and a book is two people's, all of them coming together and creating a separate entity. And also you had the creative challenge of our two different ways of creating. Like I'm much more like, how do I feel right now? Do I want to write, do I not? My wife's they have these things called deadlines and you don't get to do that. So there was a lot of from the bumping up of our creative styles and also like deadlines. I don't like deadlines. I would say I was more rebellious and harder to reign in. But we did do it. And when we finally did it, I remember in a podcast that we did together, they were like, would you write another book together. And we're both like, probably not. We love each other, but my wife, that's why you wouldn't do it. Because you love each other. 

I was like, we have a kid now. We wrote a book and my wife is like such a prolific writer that she has so many books in her that she needs to write that are trying to move through her and she's stepping towards now. 

[01:13:36] LW: And there've been a lot of contributions to this relationship genre. We've had the Gottman's who you talked about. We have Helen Fisher, right? We have men are from Mars. We have Jason. Where does your book Liberated Love - what does it add to this genre that people wouldn't necessarily get in any of those other books? 

[01:13:56] MG: Well, the first thing is that it's the first book written on codependency as like sort of the main sort of overarching subject since Melody Beatty's book, Codependent No More, which is such an exceptional book, that book was based on the premises of CODA and an Al Anon. So, codependents, anonymous and, people who are in a relationship with alcoholics. So it was really from this framework of being in a relationship with an addict, which all the patterns are the same. It's just that's not everyone's experience. 

And so we really wanted to normalize that like most people are in codependent relationships and this isn't, we need other people. So there's this idea that healing a relationship is about not needing other people. And we're saying, well, no, that's not it. You want to be able to need other people. You want to be able to trust them, but you don't want to compromise yourself, your safety, your security, your health, your wellbeing for relationship. 

And I'd say 99.9% of people I've ever met in my life, especially through my relationship work, are in some sort of dynamic where they compromise themselves or they're in a relationship with someone who compromises themselves and both of those dynamics are part of the codependent dance. So I'd say that we were really honored to be able to be in that category. 

And then secondly, is we like really brought, well, one, we're husband and wife who wrote a book together, which Harville Hendricks and Helen Hunt have done that and they're incredible. And so that feels great. And the other thing is we really overlap these relationship knowledge subjects like attachment and nervous system and these types of dynamics. 

But we talk about things that like, what is it mean to truly be in a relationship? That's about bringing yourself fully alive. And what are the tools and techniques and technologies that we can do to do that?

So it's both here's what you need to know as a skill and here's how you implement that. And the sacred pause is for sure a very unique thought process and a very unique technology to bring into it. And last but not least I think the audio book, what's really powerful about it is at the end of each chapter, we actually have an unscripted discussion about the chapter and how it applied to our lives and what we learned.

[01:16:11] LW: I really enjoyed chatting with you more. There's so much here. There's so much we did not get to, but I think people need to just go ahead and buy the book and read it. And whether you're in a relationship, whether you are not in it, whether you're in your sacred pause without realizing that you're in your sacred pause. I think this there's so much useful information in this book. And it was awesome just getting a chance to connect with you. I've listened to you a lot in your own podcast. You've got a very popular Mark Groves Podcast, and it's pretty much dedicated to relationship topics with all kinds of influencers and luminaries from all fields. So yeah, the way you share is as if you are just thinking of things in the moment, which is really beautiful.

Because a lot of times when you, people have done a thousand podcasts about their book, you hear these like scripted sort of stories that they've told a million times. And I didn't get the sense that you, were doing that. It seemed like you were just really being very present with it. So I just want to acknowledge you for that.

And your book came out in April 2024. I heard Malcolm Gladwell talk about how when outliers came out he had this little footnote about 10,000 hours. And that became like the thing that everybody, caught onto from that book. And since your book has been out in these last several months, is there anything that people have really been dialed in on that surprised you.

[01:17:44] MG: Yeah. You know what? I actually didn't realize how powerful the concept of a Sacred Pause would be. Like when Kylie and I wrote the book and she inserted this idea, this suggestion. I was like, eh, like that's, I don't know how that's going to land .I just wasn't fully bought into it at first. And then once it all came together, because I just thought how confronting is that idea? Taking a sacred pause, but I realized I'd done it. She'd done it. We'd worked with people who had done it. We just hadn't called it that. And I was like, oh, you know what? This is actually so potent. And actually my fear that it's confronting is actually exactly why it needs to be in there.

And then I was so pleasantly surprised by how many people are like, holy crap like I'm in my boss or I'm doing this. And my wife and I are in a pause. and it's just been really beautiful to see people just even bringing the pause forward is actually one of the most powerful conversations to have as a couple, because it acknowledges that you are always at this intersection of are we in, are we out? That's always present. And so it's if we're in, what does that mean? If we're out, what does that mean? And can we actually just really, if we're going to lean in, lean in, and if we're going to lean out, let's just claim that so many people, I think when they're giving relationship advice, want the people to stay together.

And as much as I would desire that, if that's what someone's supposed to experience in their relationship, and that's what both people desire, they certainly can do that through the book. But I'm also like, as soon as you start giving advice based on desired outcomes, you don't give. There's not a dedication to like, let's reveal what is actually true for each person's path. Does it align, does it not? And so I, feel really proud that, it is an objective invitation to both people moving towards what's best for both of them. 

[01:19:47] LW: Yeah. I feel like that's been really one of the big missing elements of relating to people because that is a part of it. I know for a time there I was the world's foremost expert in breaking up and getting back together with the same person. And not realizing what that was about or not creating a space for myself to do very intentional work when you're apart. But that's something that people can actually talk about. And maybe there could be even, I don't know, maybe there could be like a sabbatical where you just take a month apart, without breaking up, without going through all the drama. You just recognize, hey, we're having these different experiences quite often. Let's just take a month and just, I'll go off into the woods and to a cabin and you go do whatever you got to do. And/or we'll just like you stay in this part of the house. I'll stay in that part of the house. 

Speaking of which, what do you think about different rooms, different bedrooms, different bathrooms in the same house?

[01:20:41] MG: I've heard a lot more about that recently. Right now my wife and I stay in different rooms because she's co-sleeping with our son. So I'm fully supportive because I get a tremendous sleep from it, but compared to when I'm sharing a bed with them, cause he likes to slide his fist under my throat when he rolls over or and I'm afraid of bumping them, so I don't sleep very well, but it's like our long distance relationships better or whatever, it's really, I don't know. The two people that compose it and why are they choosing it? Are they choosing it? And do they still make the time to come together intimately and for connection? And if all these conversations are just out, like sometimes we move to separate rooms because we're actually starting to create division in the relationship, we're just like slowly tearing each other apart, instead of just ripping the mandate off. 

And you see this when people step into open relationships, too. They open it instead of ending it. They think that's the pathway. And I'm not saying there's no judgment people in open relationships. I just see that as a transition often to end up being monogamous with someone else. And you get to put that one under spirituality, so it doesn't have any criticism, but it can be often in a ethically… 

[01:21:59] LW: Non-monogamous… 

[01:22:01] MG: Right? Which again it doesn't mean it can't be great. But it's often used as a tool of avoidance. And so, yeah, if you want to have separate rooms, I don't think there's a good or a bad.

I think it's just what are the conversations and agreements about it? What fears does it bring up? What positives does it bring forward? Are you revisiting it after a couple of weeks? How does it feel? So that people are really both people are being honored. What do you need more of? Oh, you need more cuddle time before we go to bed.

Great on the couch or Whatever that means I think it all just offers more material to become better communicators and more liberated in the relationship. 

[01:22:37] LW: Yeah. It comes back to that skill, having to have conversations. So yeah, that's great, man. Well, thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. I think that's also a great teaser to get people to go deeper into your ecosystem, your body of work.

The book is Liberated Love. The subtitle is release codependent patterns and create the love you. Desire by Mark Groves and Kylie Macbeth. Cool, man. Thank you again. Looking forward to hopefully crossing paths with you. 

[01:23:08] MG: Yeah, man, that'd be great.

Thank you for tuning into today's episode with Mark Groves. You can follow Mark on the socials @MarkGrovesPodcast, and you can pick up a copy of Liberated Love everywhere books are sold. You can also find links to our discussion in the show notes at lightwatkins.com/podcast.

And if you connect it with this interview, you also want to check out my interviews with Topaz Adizes who also studies human behavior and he developed this really cool model for creating better connection, which is called 12 Questions for Love. So that's an episode 202. You also want to check out episode 133 with Neil Pasricha, who unfortunately he got cheated on by his new wife, but that experience led him to create what became one of the most popular and inspiring blogs on the internet, which was called a thousand awesome things. And that was his sort of cathartic way to move on. 

And finally, you want to check out episode 59 with sexpert Emily Morse, who talks about many tips for enlivening your sexual compatibility in relationship.

And if you're thinking of anyone else that I should talk to, anyone who's had an incredible story, found their purpose and took a leap of faith and all that good stuff. I love hearing your guest suggestions. Just email them to me at light@lightwatkins.com and a very simple way that you can help me make those interviews happen is just to leave a review. It really does make a massive difference, which is why you hear hosts like me asking listeners like you all the time to leave a podcast review. All you do is you look at your device, you click on the name of the show, and you scroll down past those first few episodes. You'll see a space with five blank stars.

If you want to leave a five star rating, just tap the star all the way on the right. And if you're feeling generous, just leave a quick line about what you enjoy about this show and that can go a long way as well. 

Also, don't forget you can watch these interviews on my YouTube channel. If you ever prefer a visual element to the story. And don't forget to subscribe on YouTube as well. 

And for those of you who crave even more. The raw unedited versions of each podcast are available in my happiness insiders online community a day early. And if you want to access those, just join the happinessinsiders.com. And not only will you get the full uncut interviews with all the false starts and the chit chat throughout the episode, you'll also get access to many challenges and masterclasses for becoming the best version of yourself.

And finally, you may have noticed that I'm now releasing bite size Plot Twist episodes each Friday. A plot twist is a shorter clip from a past episode where the guest shares the story of their pivotal moment where. They shifted from the conventional thing that they were doing towards the thing that they felt more called to do. And those come out each Friday so check those out. 

And otherwise, I hope to see you back here next week for another inspiring story of an ordinary person doing extraordinary things to make the world a better place. And until then, keep trusting your intuition, keep following your heart, keep taking those leaps of faith. And if no one's told you recently that they believe in you, I believe in you. Thank you. Sending you lots of love and have a fantastic day.